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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #871  
Old 11-12-2018, 10:04 AM
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I do find it a bit odd that crow had to walk right past the body and didn't notice anything out of place. I mean shes laying on her back, legs spread, skirt pushed up covered in blood. even if he could just make the outlines of her body surely that's not the way one would sleep there. it must have been close to zero visibility, and I find that hard to believe.
It is very possible that the notion that "JtR was killing in a pitch dark environment" may have its source, right here, with Tabrams' George Yard staircase witnesses claiming they didn't see a murdered woman.

Obviously, they had to see somebody if somebody was there because Elizabeth Mahoney said she didn't see anybody there at 1:50 AM. She didn't say she wouldn't know because it would pitch black.

Crow's claims suggest if someone was there, you could see the general shape, but no details at 3:30 AM.

By 4:45 it seems John Reeves can see details because sunlight has entered the stairwell.

Crow gives the excuse for not reporting it, that it was quite common for strangers to sleep there.

So I guess in order to demonstrate that the cab driver with good eyesight, isn't lying, we would have to accept that at 3:30 AM that part of the stairwell doesn't reveal enough detail to see a dead woman lying on her back after being violated with some of her clothes torn off and the rest in disarray.
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  #872  
Old 11-12-2018, 10:25 AM
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In 1871, the Crow family were living in Ellen Court, Ellen Street, St Geo E., immediately below Berner Street.😉
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  #873  
Old 11-12-2018, 10:30 AM
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In 1871, the Crow family were living in Ellen Court, Ellen Street, St Geo E., immediately below Berner Street.😉
Thanks, that's nice to know.
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  #874  
Old 11-12-2018, 10:38 AM
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I would also just like to take a moment to point out something about Philip Sugden.

Philip Sugden, next to Donald Rumbelow (who managed to keep records of documents that went missing for the Whitechapel murder files and who found the MJK crime scene photos), is arguably the most important contribution to Jack the Ripper literature with a historical research approach which was published in his book "The Complete History of Jack the Ripper".

One of the most important developments in that book, was Sugden drawing the readers attention to Martha Tabram being a Jack the Ripper victim and that she should be included in the canon and gives his arguments why.

If Sugden was convinced she was a victim of Jack the Ripper, then that's a pretty persuasive authority right there and his arguments sound.
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  #875  
Old 11-12-2018, 10:43 AM
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If we work backwards, bearing in mind that Lechmere had only recently moved to Doveton Street and may not have known the area very well, that he had grown up in St Geo E and that for a couple of decades* his early morning working route had been from there to Pickfords through Whitechapel, where would we expect him, if he became a serial killer, to carry out his crimes?

*I'm assuming here that he had worked at the Broad Street depot all along. That's not made clear in his testimony. Nor do we know what shifts were it which days of the week he worked.
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  #876  
Old 11-12-2018, 10:49 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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I would also just like to take a moment to point out something about Philip Sugden.

Philip Sugden, next to Donald Rumbelow (who managed to keep records of documents that went missing for the Whitechapel murder files and who found the MJK crime scene photos), is arguably the most important contribution to Jack the Ripper literature with a historical research approach which was published in his book "The Complete History of Jack the Ripper".

One of the most important developments in that book, was Sugden drawing the readers attention to Martha Tabram being a Jack the Ripper victim and that she should be included in the canon and gives his arguments why.

If Sugden was convinced she was a victim of Jack the Ripper, then that's a pretty persuasive authority right there and his arguments sound.
I think I'm right, though, that Rumbelow and Stewart Evans discount Tabram?
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  #877  
Old 11-12-2018, 11:02 AM
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...where would we expect him, if he became a serial killer, to carry out his crimes?
If one is going to bet, then a radial geographic profile out from his home area and around it, would be the safest bet prior to geographic profiling. Now with perpetrator forensic awareness that can change things.

The linear commuter model, is most commonly found with dumping bodies, but even the C5 aren't linear. They are radial and they aren't dumped.

Maybe Randall Woodfield, the i5 killer is an example of a linear commuter model. However, that's an interstate highway covering whole States.
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  #878  
Old 11-12-2018, 11:06 AM
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If one is going to bet, then a radial geographic profile out from his home area and around it, would be the safest bet prior to geographic profiling. Now with perpetrator forensic awareness that can change things.

The linear commuter model, is most commonly found with dumping bodies, but even the C5 aren't linear. They are radial and they aren't dumped.

Maybe Randall Woodfield, the i5 killer is an example of a linear commuter model. However, that's an interstate highway covering whole States.
Even if he is totally unfamiliar with his 'home area'? Doesn't familiarity with his surroundings play a part?
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  #879  
Old 11-12-2018, 11:27 AM
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Even if he is totally unfamiliar with his 'home area'? Doesn't familiarity with his surroundings play a part?
It depends, because in commuter models where there is a radial pattern, meaning the offender travels to the same place (say a train station) and then goes out from this anchor point (hot zone) in different compass directions, creating a radial pattern eventually, these types of offenders are often not concerned about being seen at all because no one will recognize them. So they tend not to be worried about many of the things a marauder would, such as comfort zones and not being seen. Now that is not to say that the commuter doesn't need comfort and are okay about being seen, it is just these factors don't matter as much to a commuter.

The C5 does seem like a Marauder model, because the murder sites are all quite close to the hot zone. In commuter models, they tend to be more apart, but a case could still be made for the commuter model with the C5. I am not ruling out the hot zone was a pub JtR visited and committed his crimes upon leaving there. He might be a lodger of the doss houses who like the unfortunates, didn't have his doss money and spent the night wandering and committing his crimes that way.

Eddowes apron piece though confounds at least attempts to have JtR go in any other direction other than North East, which happens to be in the direction of the hot zone.

Where is he going at that hour? Will he make it in time for a doss house? Apparently, they were closed. So he has to be going to somewhere else. Even if it is a ditch in a corner he has slept in before... but we don't really think that. We think home is more likely where he went.

Could that be over by Doveton St.? I don't see why not. The hot zone isn't definite, it's just probable and other places aren't ruled out. However, I would tend to think anything not North West of Goulston is highly unlikely because of the apron piece.
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