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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

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  #1571  
Old 09-07-2018, 05:45 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Good work, Paddy, but the man you want was George William Topping Hutchinson. Look no further.
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  #1572  
Old 09-07-2018, 05:49 AM
Paddy Paddy is offline
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Default Hutchinsons signature at sister Alices wedding

Regarding the previous post....His Signature
Pat....
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  #1573  
Old 09-07-2018, 06:00 AM
Paddy Paddy is offline
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Default 1891 census

There is also a Henry Hutchinson born 1852 in City, London.... in St Pancras workhouse said to be a pauper, single, 39 years old and a Groom / Horsekeeper

Pat....
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  #1574  
Old 09-07-2018, 06:58 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Good work, Paddy, but the man you want was George William Topping Hutchinson. Look no further.
The one who's son claimed he told him it was all about Lord Randolph Churchill ?
He's the Hutchinson you're looking for ?
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  #1575  
Old 09-07-2018, 09:30 AM
Ben Ben is offline
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Hi Jon,

Quote:
I have no reason to dismiss Toppy as being the long sought witness, but I've said before some of the background information attributed to him by others is in my opinion nothing less than rubbish.
Agreed, but unfortunately that “rubbish” is inextricably and irreversibly linked to his candidacy as the 1888 Hutchinson. It is noteworthy that many researchers who were active in the early nineties were well aware of Reginald Hutchinson and his claims; he wasn’t a secret entity known only to the not-so-dynamic duo comprised of Melvyn Fairclough and Joseph Gorman Sickert. Melvin Harris was apparently all for conducting an exposé to catch Reginald out in a self-incriminating lie, but it never materialised owing to the (then!) relatively scant interest attaching to Hutchinson.

Quote:
In this case, because we have no alternate professional opinion on this subject (that I know of), does not mean Sue Iremonger must be correct
True, but we also have no reason to believe her professional opinion was incorrect, and in the absence of any other analysis of the original documents, her opinion carries considerable weight.

Quote:
If you are unable to faithfully offer a quote from the book, perhaps you need to resist the temptation to do so.
I’m not in the slightest bit “tempted” to provide a quote. Just read the book, Jon. What’s the problem? If you’re interested in the subject, and you clearly are (Hutchinson being your white-hot topic for the last ten years), what’s the impediment?

Quote:
The primary value in writing a book aimed at identifying the Witness George Hutchinson, is to make the connection between his subject and the real Witness in that book.
But you haven’t read the book, you don’t know the source material, and you haven’t remotely familiarised yourself with Senise’s research or conclusions, so what “value” are you expecting anyone to invest in your review? If you’re interested in the book, read it.

Similarly, if you’re interested in Toppy all of a sudden, why don’t you read the many threads on the subject, rather than expecting regurgitation of the entire sorry saga? I’d hate to have to copy and paste from gargantuan Toppy threads purely to assuage your week-old fascination with the subject.

Quote:
I never agreed that "he couldn't possibly" have made some investigation in the four or five hours prior to the end of the day
Where are you getting “four or five hours” from? Hutchinson only made himself known to the police when he approached them voluntarily at 6.00pm on the evening of the 12th...then he provided and signed his statement to Badham...then Abberline had to be called in from Leman Street...who then had to “interrogate” him. All of which would have taken a great deal of time, leaving Abberline with nothing like “four or five hours” in which to conduct an investigation.

No connection was ever made, apparently, between Hutchinson and Lewis’s loiterer, and even if there was, Lewis most likely would not have been able to provide a positive identification (which Hutchinson himself was not to know, of course). I don’t see how speaking to “beat constables” would have achieved much, considering that only one of them passed by the eastern end of Dorset Street during his vigil.

I don’t know what Bowyer has to do with any putative investigation into Hutchinson’s claims, but he certainly never provided anything resembling confirmation or support for them.

So, in short, no; Abberline had nothing like “four or five hours” at his disposal, and none of your suggested avenues of “investigation” would have assisted remotely in either confirming or repudiating Hutchinson’s claims.

But best wishes all the same,

Ben

Last edited by Ben : 09-07-2018 at 09:42 AM.
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  #1576  
Old 09-07-2018, 09:43 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Ben View Post
unfortunately that “rubbish” is inextricably and irreversibly linked to his candidacy as the 1888 Hutchinson
It isn't at all. A genuine person can have a rubbish story tacked onto them subsequently, but that has no bearing on who they were and what they did in reality. George Washington certainly existed, but the "I cannot tell a lie" story about the cherry tree was invented by biographer Mason Weems, who wanted to portray his subject as saintly from a young age. The Weems fiction doesn't detract from the reality of Washington's existence in the slightest.
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 09-07-2018 at 09:46 AM.
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  #1577  
Old 09-07-2018, 09:43 AM
Ben Ben is offline
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Quote:
Wilkinson, from the Eddowes case, the lodging-house keeper in Flower & Dean street, testified that he did not enter the names of his lodgers in the book, he just wrote an 'X' and the room number taken.
Given that there was no form of identity in those days taking names may have been viewed as pointless.
Likely the main concern of a deputy is to fill the beds, with no concern for who is in the beds.
Absolutely agreed on all counts, Jon.

The policy at the Victoria Home was very similar. Although registration may have been required for new residents*, it was certainly not mandatory for regulars; a simple “x” to record the occupancy of a bed or cabin would have sufficed. Ascertaining Hutchinson’s presence or absence there that night would have been a near impossible task owing to the sheer numbers lodging there on an average night, many of them itinerants, and all with very different work hours.

We can’t really posit the existence, minus any evidence, of a fellow lodger being conveniently stationed at the door of the Victoria Home to record Hutchinson’s arrival “as soon as it opened in the morning”. Bear in mind that there would have been great egress from the building owing to the opening of the nearby markets at 5.00, preventing Hutchinson from “standing out” or being conspicuous in any way. Even if there was such a lodger, how would it conform the rest of his account?

Quote:
As the place where he "usually slept" was closed, he chose to walk around until somewhere decent opened up, he chose the Victoria Home.
The Victoria Home was the place where he usually slept, as everyone has accepted (and will continue to accept) for over a century. It was the only establishment of its kind that would have been closed to those who hadn’t pre-purchase a bed ticket. Everywhere else was open at 2.00am to anyone with money to pay for a bed - unless you can provide me with the name of one that wasn’t?

The Victoria Home was certainly a cut above many of the grotspots in the area, but it is completely nonsensical to argue that all the other lodging houses in the entire east end, without a single exception, were of such inferior quality that a night walking the streets in the rain was preferable to sleeping in one of them.

All the best,
Ben

*That said, when Jack London stayed at the Victoria Home for the first and last time, he simply purchased a brass bed ticket, without going through any registration process.

Last edited by Ben : 09-07-2018 at 09:47 AM.
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  #1578  
Old 09-07-2018, 11:12 AM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Agreed, but unfortunately that “rubbish” is inextricably and irreversibly linked to his candidacy as the 1888 Hutchinson.
Simon Wood will correct me if my memory fails, but I seem to recall that Hutchinson's police statement itself first appeared in Stephen Knight's The Final Solution--ie., the royal conspiracy, forever linking Hutch to Sir William Gull.

What's good for the goose, is good for the gander. Shut this thread down.
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  #1579  
Old 09-07-2018, 11:50 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi,
''Shut this thread down''
You will never get rid of Hutch, he is here to stay, and also a certain Lechmere , we have resorted to two witnesses being the most discussed on Casebook.
Regards Richard.
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  #1580  
Old 09-07-2018, 12:10 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
It isn't at all. A genuine person can have a rubbish story tacked onto them subsequently, but that has no bearing on who they were and what they did in reality. George Washington certainly existed, but the "I cannot tell a lie" story about the cherry tree was invented by biographer Mason Weems, who wanted to portray his subject as saintly from a young age. The Weems fiction doesn't detract from the reality of Washington's existence in the slightest.
poor analogy Sam
were talking about a famous person and mythology that sprung up about them much later.

compared to a nobody whom the churchill thing was attributed to at the time he was SPOKEN too.

it seems to me more than likely he was led on by the interviewers and wholeheartedly went along for his 15 minutes of fame.


...wait a minute-maybe that trait runs in the family?? maybe it was the son of the real hutch after all!! ; )
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