Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson?

[Sam Flynn]

A logical order of events would be that Lawende's sailor description hit home and therefore clerk, shabby and sailor are no longer good ideas for JtR. Obviously, the alternative is to go in the other direction. Not a clerk, not shabby and not a sailor.

Where, and how, is our shabby-genteel killer going to get hold of a gold watch, silver tiepin and an astrakhan coat? Alternatively, was he a comfortably-off master of disguise who initially dressed down, but wore his normal kit only for his final murder?

[Wickerman]

Despite the name, oilcloth wasn't oily - a fabric was typically impregnated with linseed oil in order to make it waterproof, flexible and durable. It was the nearest thing to plastic or faux leather available at the time. If you had a case or bag made of oilcloth, you surely wouldn't spoil it by carrying two stinky portions of cod and chips around in it. You might use it to keep a set of knives clean and dry, however.

Right, over here they call it waxed cotton, but it's oilskin/oilcloth, just the same. I wear an oilskin jacket for work, its waterproof and durable. No transfer of oil its not like its wet as some might imply.

My father had a tool kit made from oilskin. It was a roll with strings around the middle to tie up to hold it from unrolling. When it was unrolled there were pouches inside for tools like drill bits & small files, anything long & thin.
Though I can't imagine why Astrachan would be carrying a rolled up toolkit, unless he was a dentist

[Batman]

Where, and how, is our shabby-genteel killer going to get hold of a gold watch, silver tiepin and an astrakhan coat? Alternatively, was he a comfortably-off master of disguise who initially dressed down, but wore his normal kit only for his final murder?

Our subject likely does not stay as a guest in a doss house, but does live in the hot zone. He likely has his own abode. Whether he lives alone or not, he can come and go to commit these crimes without worrying about things at home.

Items like these can be stolen, borrowed, heirlooms, bought, gifted, who knows? Annie Chapman likely had the rings from her fingers removed by her killer. I have no problem with the idea of JtR being a thief, be he well off or not.

JtR wasn't an unfortunate. He targetted them though.

I doubt JtR had to walk more than 10 minutes to get to Kelly and back home again.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick, I take your point but people who knew astracan would probably know he dressed like that or at least he had some of that attire. He could have bought the whole outfit recently I suppose but unlikely.
A man living in or around Thrawl st would have had to have a pretty good job to buy that outfit all at once, gold chain and all
Also, Description age about 34 or 35. height 5ft6 complexion pale, dark eyes and eye lashes slight moustache, curled up each end, and hair dark Jewish appearance. Again I would suppose a few of the Jewish population looked like that but putting it with his clothing etc would narrow the field considerably.

What if he was a petty thief, a poser, who stole all he had and chose to like 'the man'?
He would be someone like Joseph Isaacs, who constantly changed his dress to look like someone he wasn't, and he lived off Dorset Street.

[Wickerman]

I don't recall Hutchinson mentioning the bullseye on the back of Mr. Astrakhan's long dark coat.

Mr. A. was a mugger's wet dream.

Aye, but criminals don't normally target their own kind.

[Wickerman]

Alcohol can slow the digestion of food considerably and since Mary was likely very drunk and the fact that complex carbohydrates take longer to digest, [potatoes] are we even sure when she ate the meal?

No, we are not sure.
Dr Bond gave his estimate but it is highly debatable.

[Wickerman]

These pewter beer cans were taken home from the pub and then left out on the doorstep. In the morning, the publican or the publican's boy would make the rounds and pick them up, like so many empty milk bottles. An account of this procedure was alluded to during a murder case in Richmond in 1879 that involved the landlord of the Rising Sun P.H. among other sources.

Yes but I can't imagine how the publican's 'boy' would know where Blotchy was headed that night.

[Joshua Rogan]

My father had a tool kit made from oilskin. It was a roll with strings around the middle to tie up to hold it from unrolling. When it was unrolled there were pouches inside for tools like drill bits & small files, anything long & thin.
Though I can't imagine why Astrachan would be carrying a rolled up toolkit, unless he was a dentist

I have a similar one for carrying spanners, but they're equally useful for knives....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07HT1FC2Y/ref=asc_df_B07HT1FC2Y57261664/?tag=googshopuk-21&creative=22146&creativeASIN=B07HT1FC2Y&linkCode=df0&hvadid=305185307486&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12757790282864312943&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045736&hvtargid=pla-547782607414

[Wickerman]

Up until Kelly we have a JtR that is blending in well. Yet with Kelly we see a man dressed up for something.

We also have a killer who has changed his M.O., allowing himself to be seen face to face by a witness in the company of his next victim.
This is a problem in my view.

To this extent, a man dressed as he was, as dangerous as he was, would have no problem walking Whitechapel at night. He wasn't fearing running into someone with a knife. He was the fear, with the knife.

Generally, killers who prey on the vulnerable, in this case drunken women, are not known to be so brave when confronted with men.

I doubt Astrachan was the killer anyway. I think he was there because this was his neighborhood. He was not afraid because he was part of the criminal element.

On another tack.....Hutchinson said he thought he saw him in the Petticoat Lane (the market), so maybe Astrachan was a confidence trickster or petty thief, just like Isaacs.
The Petticoat Lane market did include Goulston Street (the Graffiti?). I have not heard anyone else mention this - coincidence?

[Sam Flynn]

I have a similar one for carrying spanners, but they're equally useful for knives....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07HT1FC...a-547782607414

Indeed. That one even has a kind of strap

[Batman]

We also have a killer who has changed his M.O., allowing himself to be seen face to face by a witness in the company of his next victim.
This is a problem in my view.

One could look at the extent of MJK's injuries and conclude this required an environment which gave her murderer time and security, which is what that room provided. He simply could not do this on the street because he wouldn't have the time. So one could say that the M.O change was inevitable.

Serial Killers make mistakes. That is why they get caught. They do get seen. An M.O. change would be a good time to find mistakes.

Generally, killers who prey on the vulnerable, in this case drunken women, are not known to be so brave when confronted with men.

Notice that in Hutchinson's story, JtR spends some time chatting with MJK at the entrance to Miller's court after he has seen him. It may be during this time that he is judging the situation, possibly asking MJK about the man he has just seen. Either way, we know how it ended if this is what was happening.

I doubt Astrachan was the killer anyway. I think he was there because this was his neighborhood. He was not afraid because he was part of the criminal element.

I don't think there is a lot of difference between this man and the other descriptions of JtR except for attire and few inches more.

On another tack.....Hutchinson said he thought he saw him in the Petticoat Lane (the market), so maybe Astrachan was a confidence trickster or petty thief, just like Isaacs.
The Petticoat Lane market did include Goulston Street (the Graffiti?). I have not heard anyone else mention this - coincidence?

This is the kind of thing I find most interesting. Little subtle connections like this and the Chandlery on Thrawl St.

[DJA]

I am Islington born. I grew up in London.

Are you familiar with Finsbury Square?

I believe Nichols and Chapman were murdered by a pathologist on his way home from London Hospital.

Forget your heat maps for the moment

[Roy Corduroy]

What is the name of your doctor please?

Roy

[DJA]

Henry Gawen Sutton,MB.

Nichols and Eddowes were his inpatients from December 1867.

Expert in the hereditary disease that was obvious due to Stride's bottom lip,hence the cachous.

Chest expert. TB. Chapman.

Vestry medical officer to Mary Ann Kelly's church when she was a young girl.

Moved next door to William Gull after completing studies and gaining postions.

[Fisherman]

I believe Nichols and Chapman were murdered by a pathologist on his way home from London Hospital.

A pathologist? Who didn´t get his fill of cutting up bodies at work? And who was 52 at the time of the murders?

There is a lengthy obituary from the British Medical Journal about Sutton, who died in 1891, here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2273228/?page=3