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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Annie Chapman

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  #1  
Old 06-10-2016, 02:01 PM
Madam Detective Madam Detective is offline
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Default Annie's birth date

It seems to be generally accepted that Annie Chapman (nee Smith) was born before her parents were married, at some point between 1840-41. Given that her brother, Fountain (who cited her age at the inquest) was born roughly 20 years after Annie, by which time, according to the census she had already left home, why do we assume that his information about her birth date was reliable? She is said to have been 47-48 at her death, but she could have have been younger and looked older. I would be interested in knowing if anyone else has had any luck nailing down an actual birth record for her.
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Old 06-10-2016, 02:24 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madam Detective View Post
It seems to be generally accepted that Annie Chapman (nee Smith) was born before her parents were married, at some point between 1840-41. Given that her brother, Fountain (who cited her age at the inquest) was born roughly 20 years after Annie, by which time, according to the census she had already left home, why do we assume that his information about her birth date was reliable? She is said to have been 47-48 at her death, but she could have have been younger and looked older. I would be interested in knowing if anyone else has had any luck nailing down an actual birth record for her.
Hi,

This reminds me of a question I had some time ago. Did people celebrate birthdays in the 1880s?

Sorry if this is a bit off topic.

Regards, Pierre
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Old 06-10-2016, 02:36 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Hi,

This reminds me of a question I had some time ago. Did people celebrate birthdays in the 1880s?

Sorry if this is a bit off topic.

Regards, Pierre
The answer to that question is yes.

Did EVERYONE, probably not.
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Old 06-10-2016, 02:39 PM
Azarna Azarna is offline
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I have birthday cards dating from around that time. I don't know how cheap they were by 1888, but probably something that only the better off folks purchased.
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Old 06-10-2016, 02:42 PM
MysterySinger MysterySinger is offline
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According to my information, Annie was born
Annie Eliza Smith on 1st September 1841 in Knightsbridge.

Her parents, George and Ruth, were married on 22nd February 1842.
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Old 06-10-2016, 07:30 PM
Rosella Rosella is offline
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It depended on how much money you had as to whether birthdays were celebrated, if at all. There were some very elaborate children's birthday parties held in London hotels for the wealthy in the 1880's and '90's, but did poor and large working class families have, parties, cards, presents? Usually not. Some people probably knew their date of birth but the day itself would be like any other. I know Ned Kelly, the Aussie bushranger, born to a large Irish family in rural Australia, didn't know his date of birth, and he wouldn't have been alone.
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Old 06-10-2016, 07:52 PM
jmenges jmenges is offline
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http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/8693.html

Although the 1881 census lists her as 40, a poster on the above thread argues for an age of 39 due to the date the census was taken.

JM
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Old 06-10-2016, 07:54 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosella View Post
It depended on how much money you had as to whether birthdays were celebrated, if at all. There were some very elaborate children's birthday parties held in London hotels for the wealthy in the 1880's and '90's, but did poor and large working class families have, parties, cards, presents? Usually not. Some people probably knew their date of birth but the day itself would be like any other. I know Ned Kelly, the Aussie bushranger, born to a large Irish family in rural Australia, didn't know his date of birth, and he wouldn't have been alone.
My family were working to lower middle class and birthdays were always observed. Some farmers, some miners some clergy, some blacksmiths, some doctors and some lawyers, so a fair old mix.

Presents may not have amounted to much, even the meal may not have been anything special, but still acknowledged that another year had gone by, now I don't know that this applied to every family of course, but from members of the family that I knew it doesn't seem it was considered unusual.

All the class difference seems to have impacted was the sort of present or meal.
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Old 06-11-2016, 05:56 PM
Madam Detective Madam Detective is offline
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MysterySinger, are you going by info you found in the birth records or did you find this somewhere else? Bizarrely, this website: https://www.thejacktheripperwalk.com/victims/#chapman says there's a family bible that states she was born on the 25th of Sept, 1840. I have no idea where this proverbial family bible is. Neal Shelden consulted it, so I can only guess it's in the hands of her descendants. However, in his book, Neal says Annie's birth date still isn't verified. I'm confused.
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Old 06-12-2016, 03:56 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Annie was baptised on 23rd April 1842 at Christ Church, Albany, Camden. Sometimes birth dates are given in these records but there isn't one in this case. With the parents marrying in March 1842, a baptism the following month for a 7 month old child born out of wedlock seems reasonable.

23rd April 1842 at Christ Church, Albany, Camden Annie Eliza, daughter of George and Ruth, living in Knightsbridge, father's occupation 'trooper'

Neal may have already posted this somewhere a couple of years back.
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