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Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - by Joshua Rogan 2 hours ago.
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Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - (24 posts)
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Torso Killings: JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful. - (13 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: Time after Time: Did JtR have a watch? - (3 posts)
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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #1221  
Old 10-27-2017, 07:30 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal
C5 Ripper victims:

Nichols-no organs removed
Chapman-uterus removed
stride-no abdominal mutilations
eddowes- kidney removed
Kelly-killed indoors, heart removed
You only give part of the picture.

Nichols - Killed outdoors in a public place in August 1888. Throat deeply cut, abdomen subject to deep, lacerating wounds, bowels protruding

Chapman - Killed outdoors in a public place in August 1888. Throat deeply cut, abdomen subject to deep, lacerating wounds, bowels extruded, uterus and part of bladder removed and taken from scene

Stride - Killed outdoors in a public place in September 1888. Throat cut

Eddowes - Killed outdoors in a public place in September 1888. Throat deeply cut, abdomen subject to deep, lacerating wound, bowels extruded, uterus and kidney removed and taken from scene. Facial mutilations

Kelly - Killed indoors on her own premises in November 1888. Throat deeply cut, abdomen subject to deep, lacerating wounds, abdominal flesh completely removed, bowels extruded and cut out, all abdominal organs removed, thorax opened and bits of lung removed, heart taken from scene. Facial and body mutilations
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  #1222  
Old 10-27-2017, 07:38 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
You only give part of the picture.

Nichols - Killed outdoors in a public place in August 1888. Throat deeply cut, abdomen subject to deep, lacerating wounds, bowels protruding

Chapman - Killed outdoors in a public place in August 1888. Throat deeply cut, abdomen subject to deep, lacerating wounds, bowels extruded, uterus and part of bladder removed and taken from scene

Stride - Killed outdoors in a public place in September 1888. Throat cut

Eddowes - Killed outdoors in a public place in September 1888. Throat deeply cut, abdomen subject to deep, lacerating wound, bowels extruded, uterus and kidney removed and taken from scene. Facial mutilations

Kelly - Killed indoors on her own premises in November 1888. Throat deeply cut, abdomen subject to deep, lacerating wounds, abdominal flesh completely removed, bowels extruded and cut out, all abdominal organs removed, thorax opened and bits of lung removed, heart taken from scene. Facial and body mutilations
Sam

Quote:
You only give part of the picture.
so do you-that's why I did it. frustrating isn't it?

My God man, can you ever concede a point, no matter how small?

Have you ever conceded a point? Its really not that hard Sam. here Ill show you:

I originally thought there might be some significance or similarity involving the chemise.

I concede this is probably not the case.

see. its easy! : )
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  #1223  
Old 10-27-2017, 07:45 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
My God man, can you ever concede a point, no matter how small?
In this case, there's no point to concede. Apart from Stride and possibly - just possibly - Kelly, the similarities are so great that there's little reason to make a strong argument for a different killer.

PS, apart from the similarities I previously listed, I should also have added "killed in a small part of the east end of London"
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 10-27-2017 at 07:48 AM.
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  #1224  
Old 10-27-2017, 07:51 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
In this case, there's no point to concede. Apart from Stride and possibly - just possibly - Kelly, the similarities are so great that there's little reason to make a strong argument for a different killer.

PS, apart from the similarities I previously listed, I should also have added "killed in a small part of the east end of London"
but you see no similarity to three women that had flaps of skin to there abdomen removed? you cant even concede that?
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #1225  
Old 10-27-2017, 07:55 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
but you see no similarity to three women that had flaps of skin to there abdomen removed? you cant even concede that?
I think to Gareths mind, that is the surefire way to tell these three victims apart in terms of who killed them. The perceived dissimilarities when it comes to how those flaps may have been cut and their respective shapes and numbers seemingly tells him that three different killers must have been at large, all of them into the fine art of abdominal wall removal.

Let´s see how many disciples will latch on...
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  #1226  
Old 10-27-2017, 08:18 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
but you see no similarity to three women that had flaps of skin to there abdomen removed? you cant even concede that?
Not really, Abby, because - as I said earlier - there are only so many practicable ways for a layman to cut away abdominal flesh. For that reason, I don't see the cutting of flaps, slabs or strips of flesh as a useful diagnostic criterion.
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  #1227  
Old 10-27-2017, 08:28 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Not really, Abby, because - as I said earlier - there are only so many practicable ways for a layman to cut away abdominal flesh. For that reason, I don't see the cutting of flaps, slabs or strips of flesh as a useful diagnostic criterion.
How about the fact that flesh WAS cut away? Since that is a feature rarer than hen´s teeth, I mean? And I don´t mean amongst butchers, I mean amongst serial killers.

In the earlier example I provided you with, where three murder victims had their buttocks cut away, either fully or partly, would you say that "there are only so many ways a layman can cut buttocks away" and dismiss it as a viable part of understanding the deeds and who lay behind them?
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  #1228  
Old 10-27-2017, 08:30 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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If three other murder victims all had their front teeth extracted, would you say that there are only so many ways a layman can pull out tooths and dismiss it as a lead to who did it?

Do you fully understand the implications of your reasoning here?
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  #1229  
Old 10-27-2017, 08:45 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
If three other murder victims all had their front teeth extracted, would you say that there are only so many ways a layman can pull out tooths and dismiss it as a lead to who did it?

Do you fully understand the implications of your reasoning here?
And do you fully understand what modern day experts conclude the conslusion goes against what you and others are doing by trying to link these torsos to a serial killer.

here is another quote from Dr Biggs

When I am describing separated body parts in such cases, I'll use terms like 'flap' of skin, 'strip' of skin or perhaps 'bridge' of skin where two pieces haven't entirely separated. These are purely descriptive terms, and have no underlying medical significance. I suspect that the descriptions given in these historical cases were originally just that (i.e. descriptions), but that over the years undue significance has been pinned to the terminology in the hope of somehow finding a 'link' between cases.

I'm not saying there is no link between the bodies; of course, I'm just saying that you can't make that link based on similar descriptions of the remains by the medical persons who examined them at the time.


So lets all go home and have a nice cuppa tea and forget all about a serial killer.!
www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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  #1230  
Old 10-27-2017, 08:52 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
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If three other murder victims all had their front teeth extracted, would you say that there are only so many ways a layman can pull out tooths and dismiss it as a lead to who did it?
No, because the removal of teeth would be decidedly weird.

Dismemberment murders have been associated with the cutting open of the abdomen and the removal of organs, and usually for very practical reasons (Gein, Nilsen, Dahmer). With dismemberment murders, therefore, it appears that the opening of the abdomen and the removal of the organs needn't be an end in itself.
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 10-27-2017 at 09:20 AM.
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