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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Le Grand, Charles

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  #221  
Old 11-17-2012, 03:31 AM
mariab mariab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
I've looked at Clark for some other reason before I seem to recall. It might have been in connection with George Lewis and the Parnell Inquiry, I'll have to check to now though.
Apparently Clarke was employed by George Lewis in the Parnell inquiry, while Le Grand claimed he was hired by Soames to “investigate“ Lewis' good friend, Labouchere. And apparently Clarke was employed by Lewis to investigate Le Grand. Small world?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5445&highlight=The+Primrose+Leagu e
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  #222  
Old 11-17-2012, 10:55 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Le Grand claimed to have been hired by George Lewis not Soames. He first made the claim at Marlborough Street when brought up on charges to do with the Morris case. George Lewis would later state at the Old Bailey that Le Grand came to him with a PI named Scanlan and a letter of recommendation from the Irish Times and looking to be employed on the Parnell Inquiry. He was, according to Lewis, turned away, as he was on a second lone visit to Lewis.
The mention of Soames name comes up because Lewis was asked at the same CCC trial, if he thought (knew if?) Le Grand was working for Soames, shadowing Piggott and Labouchere. The context of that question is unclear in the transcripts and to my knowledge no one has yet discovered a fuller version of that Old Bailey questioning of Lewis.
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  #223  
Old 11-17-2012, 10:59 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Hi Harry-just quickly.
Le Grand was definitely in prison 1908 until his probable deportation in 1917, after being convicted as George Jackson and breaking the terms of his licence. He received a new sentence plus he had to serve the remaining time of his old sentence.
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  #224  
Old 11-17-2012, 09:26 PM
Harry Poland Harry Poland is offline
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Debs. Just as a matter of technicality, I'm not sure that Legrand's extra sentence was due to breaking the terms of previous licence, which would normally run concurrently with the later term of PS. I think it more probable that he was convicted as being an 'Habitual Criminal' and sentenced under the 1908 Prevention of Crimes Act. If I'm right here then this would have been a judicial decision which will be preserved somewhere in the records.

I've now found a George Jackson appearing in 1917 tax records in Aldersgate Street. No records of him at this place in 1916 so ties with date of release.

Last edited by Harry Poland : 11-17-2012 at 09:39 PM.
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  #225  
Old 11-18-2012, 08:50 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Harry, the records found by Rob, which have been posted somewhere, show Jackson received four years penal servitude plus remanet of former sentence (which was just short of four years) He was due to be released in Jan. 1917, eligible for licence in 1915 but the secretary of state withheld his licence and he was not released. The refusal to release him on licence again in 1915 may have been due to the act you mention.
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  #226  
Old 11-20-2012, 03:36 PM
Harry Poland Harry Poland is offline
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Time for a little bit more clutching at straws. I'm all out of solid ideas.

YO11 as an amendment in green on the deportation order of 1917: Considering that the handwriting is terrible, could this be IOM signifying internment on the Isle of Man (Knockaloe??) When I get time, i.e. never, I'll look into it

I'm really enjoying researching this man of several aliases, unknown birth, unknown parentage and unknown death. I keep finding out lots about him - like who he wasn't, where he wasn't and what he didn't do :-)

Last edited by Harry Poland : 11-20-2012 at 03:43 PM.
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  #227  
Old 11-23-2012, 10:42 AM
Harry Poland Harry Poland is offline
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OK. IOM internment looks like a dead end.

I've now had a chance to speak to somebody who currently advocates for people threatened with deportation, she is also something of an expert on the legal and cultural history of immigration. Following a lengthy discussion during which several glasses of wine were consumed we've got a new working theory on Legrand's deportation:

Apparently the colour of the ink has some significance: Black=original document, red= 1st amendment, green=2nd and purple would be used if a 3rd was necessary. From this and the lack of red ink we can deduce that Legrand's file was amended at least twice, the lack of red ink suggesting that there is or at least was more information than the current record holds.

The only reason that a DO would be revoked would be on appeal, by the deported person.

The date of 20/06/41 is very unlikely to be the date of appeal and revoke, Legrand would be around dead years old at this date. Of 27/10/15 would make little sense as well (you can't appeal against a DO that has not yet been granted). I'll need to find time to go and see the original but the date is more likely to be 27/10/18 would make much more sense.

Most of the other green DO revoked notes on the page carry a date significantly after the DO was made followed by what is almost certainly a reference number to another file. Again there is a lack of red ink here.

So the theory runs:

1 - Legrand deported to Copenhagen 07/06/17
2 - Legrand appeals and DO is overturned 27/10/18, the records of this being amended to another file, presumably in red (please notice that the first amendments in red on the page from the deportation file have plausible dates (1915, 1919, 1918, 1919)
3 - As a result of a housekeeping, or probate excercise the green amendment was made to the record on 20/06/1941 - Green ink being used either because this book is supposed to be read in conjunction with another document amended in red or because the amendment was not contemporaranious with the revoking of the order)
4- This leads to the inevitable conclusion that YO11 probably refers to another document with further contemporary details.

We are not certain of the above being correct, and due to the constraints of time I my research is limited to the internet armchair variety rather than the proper good fun stuff in the archives, but if we're going to look for Legrand post 1917 I'd say that on balance of probabilities the place to look would be England not Denmark. (There is a George Jackson who appears in the London tax records at about the right time, could this be our man??)

I won't really be able to follow any of this up for a month or so, so if anybody wants to run with it they are most welcome to, but please share what you find)

Moving off at a tangent, I don't think that Christian Nelson is Legrand, not only is the date of birth well off but he is listed as a Danish born British subject on the census.

Legrand remains a fascinating puzzle
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  #228  
Old 11-23-2012, 11:34 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Thanks for the thoughts, Harry. I'm not sure that many other posters will even know what records are being discussed here as the documents Rob Clack found referring to deportation of Le Grand as George Jackson in 1917 were posted and discussed on JTR forums and not here on casebook.
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  #229  
Old 11-23-2012, 11:49 AM
Harry Poland Harry Poland is offline
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Hi Debra.

Sorry to post all this stuff here referring to info elsewhere. I'd love to post in the correct place but I think it's locked to new members :-(

Having said that, reading the names of the posters elsewhere there's a lot of familiar names so hopefully someone might know what the heck I'm talking about.
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