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  #1  
Old 06-20-2018, 02:34 PM
Roy Corduroy Roy Corduroy is offline
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Default Our Charles Cross

From the Islington Gazette Dec 29th, 1876

FATAL ACCIDENT

An inquiry was held on Wednesday, at the Coroner's Court, touching the death of Walter Williams, aged four years, who was run over by a Pickford's van.

Walter Williams, of 36, Cloudesley-road, a jeweler, and father of the deceased, said on Thursday last he was told that his boy was run over and killed. He made inquiries, and he had reason to blame the driver, believing he had not exercised proper care.

George Porter, a traveler, said on Thursday, at about four o-clock in the afternoon, he was outside his brother's shop, 3, Elizabeth-terrace, when he witnessed the accident. He saw a Pickford's van going towards Liverpool-road, and he saw deceased and another child about to cross the road. The driver called out, and the witness then saw deceased reel against the near side shaft of the van about two feet from the pavement. The driver tried to pull up but the wheels went over deceased.

Henrietta Owen, of 100, Aldenham-street said she was in Elizabeth-terrace on the day in question, and saw the child run over. The van was going slowly. One child drew back, but deceased was caught by the wheel.

Dr. Hindhaugh, of Barnsbury-road, deposed that deceased was brought to his surgery in a dying state. The cause of death was internal injuries and facture of an arm.

William Warner, of 25, Henry-street, deposed to seeing the accident, and said he heard the driver shout, but the horse was then on the child.

Charles Cross, carman to Pickford and Co., said he was crossing with his van from Copenhagen-street to Elizabeth-street, when two children seemed to come from behind a trap that was standing on the off-side, all in an instant, running against his horses. He tried to pull up, but found it was impossible.

The jury expressed the opinion that the driver was not to blame, and they returned a verdict of "Accidental death."

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  #2  
Old 06-20-2018, 02:59 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Now...

Itís not Lechmere.......
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There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.
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Old 06-20-2018, 03:06 PM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by GUT View Post
Now...

It’s not Lechmere.......
Or...

It is and it's a precedent that somehow supports the theory...

Last edited by MrBarnett : 06-20-2018 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 06-20-2018, 03:18 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Or...

It is and it's a precedent that somehow supports the theory...
Sorry my post should have said ďif itís not our LechmereĒ.
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Old 06-20-2018, 03:22 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Iíve even looking at the Cross family for sometime.

Unfortunately Iím not as good a family researcher as some here are.

But..

Iíve found another Charles Cross, a nephew I think of Thomas, same age as Lechmere, havenít found where he worked but looks like he came to Australia 1890s and became a ......




Delivery man.


See my point is I am not 100% convinced that Cross and Lechmere were one and the same.
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Old 06-20-2018, 11:16 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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One way or another, Thomas Cross seems to have been a bit of a jinx, doesn't he?
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Old 06-21-2018, 03:30 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Or...

It is and it's a precedent that somehow supports the theory...
My suggestion was based on a conversation I recently had with a Lechmerian who thought the discovery could be seen as supporting the theory.

There has been some research to see if there might be an alternative Charles Cross who might have worked for Pickfords in the 1870s and (from memory) there seemed to be just one who was a carman but whose employer was unknown and who was based south of the River (Lambeth, I think).

I think there's a fair chance the man in the press report was Charles Lechmere, and the fact could be interpreted to support the Lechmere theory and doesn't necessarily mean he was on Pickfords' books as Cross.

As for Charles Lechmere of Doveton Street not being one and the same as Charles Cross the witness at Nichols' inquest, I think that's highly unlikely.

Last edited by MrBarnett : 06-21-2018 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 06-22-2018, 01:09 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Hi Fish,

You ask:

Gary, what do you think about the possibility - could he have used an alias throughout, to keep an escape route open? If he was the killer?


Well, yes, of course he could have conceived the idea of using an alias as soon as his murderous urges started to surface (assuming they ever did), but I question the value of an alias that is given alongside other information that would identify him, such as his home address and place of work. Aliases are normally used to prevent a person being tracked down by the authorities or to conceal previous criminal convictions. In the two examples we have -1876 and 1888- the name Cross wasn't being used in either of those ways, was it? But perhaps he saw the name Cross as a sort of psychological shield, or a pair of psychological rubber gloves so to speak, used to distance himself - the hard working family man - from the predator. And as you say, should the use of the name Cross be questioned he could always demonstrate that it was not entirely fictitious.

It did occur to me at one time that perhaps there were some who might have had reason to suspect a man named Lechmere of dubious activity and his use of Cross was to prevent them making the connection between the man they suspected and the one they might read about in their newspaper. But having done a bit of research into Lechmere's mother's* background I'm increasingly of the opinion that it was the name Lechmere itself that was being protected from bad publicity.

Whatever, there's no getting away from the fact that it's odd that the Lechmere name does not appear in the records of the Nichols case or (if it was indeed him) the 1876 incident.

Gary



*I can't let this opportunity pass without quoting (not for the first time) these wonderful lines from the classic movie Kind Hearts and Coronets:

'Did poor Mama's silly dreaming plant in my brain some seed, which was afterwards to grow into the most sensational criminal endeavour of the century?'

Last edited by MrBarnett : 06-22-2018 at 01:11 AM.
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Old 06-22-2018, 01:20 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Hi Fish,

You ask:

Gary, what do you think about the possibility - could he have used an alias throughout, to keep an escape route open? If he was the killer?


Well, yes, of course he could have conceived the idea of using an alias as soon as his murderous urges started to surface (assuming they ever did), but I question the value of an alias that is given alongside other information that would identify him, such as his home address and place of work. Aliases are normally used to prevent a person being tracked down by the authorities or to conceal previous criminal convictions. In the two examples we have -1876 and 1888- the name Cross wasn't being used in either of those ways, was it? But perhaps he saw the name Cross as a sort of psychological shield, or a pair of psychological rubber gloves so to speak, used to distance himself - the hard working family man - from the predator. And as you say, should the use of the name Cross be questioned he could always demonstrate that it was not entirely fictitious.

It did occur to me at one time that perhaps there were some who might have had reason to suspect a man named Lechmere of dubious activity and his use of Cross was to prevent them making the connection between the man they suspected and the one they might read about in their newspaper. But having done a bit of research into Lechmere's mother's* background I'm increasingly of the opinion that it was the name Lechmere itself that was being protected from bad publicity.

Whatever, there's no getting away from the fact that it's odd that the Lechmere name does not appear in the records of the Nichols case or (if it was indeed him) the 1876 incident.

Gary



*I can't let this opportunity pass without quoting (not for the first time) these wonderful lines from the classic movie Kind Hearts and Coronets:

'Did poor Mama's silly dreaming plant in my brain some seed, which was afterwards to grow into the most sensational criminal endeavour of the century?'

Gary

May i just say i think that is a very fair post.



Steve
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Old 06-22-2018, 01:43 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Gary

May i just say i think that is a very fair post.



Steve
Thanks, Steve, I was worried my 'psychological rubber gloves' might attract a few chuckles.

As a narrative, the overbearing mother, possibly holding the purse strings and drumming a hatred of bad women into her son works a treat for me. What little evidence there is certainly complements that view.

I await Fish's post-Equinox response with bated breath.

Last edited by MrBarnett : 06-22-2018 at 01:46 AM.
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