Lechmere The Psychopath

[Fisherman]

I did Fish, post # 685.
I did not make those comment, I was responding to the poster who did.

Steve

Ah, okay - So I missed one and misread another. Not bad for a days work.

Thanks for helping clearing it up.

[Fisherman]

You two make a great team.

And you donīt make a team at all, great or bad.

Thatīs the advantage of teaming up.

Wanna join?

[Rainbow]

Fisherman,

I wish you add that to the documentary, let the people know the truth..

Thanks

[Elamarna]

Is this applicable to the issue of breathing/no breathing? It was posted by a PhD and MD (Stanford) in neurophysiology with 30 years of experience:

"Clinical death means cessation of heart beat ie cardiac arrest and cessation of breathing i.e respiratory arrest. Of all the organs brain is most susceptible to ishchemic injury. After clinical death, loss of conciousness will occur almost immediately. Brain activity cannot be measured in 20 to 30seconds. Irreversible brain injury occurs within 3 minutes. That means even if CPR is successful brain function cannot be recovered. But actual cell death i.e necrosis takes place only after few hours".

If this is correct, does it mean that breathing cannot occur after 20-30 seconds after the blood supply to the brain is cut off? Since there is no brain activity telling the muscles to contract? Please remember that I am no medico myself, I am just trying to grasp the topic as best as I can.

Not in my understanding, it's a lower level function that controls breathing, and there is also a degree of feedback from various sensors in the body. So my understanding is that it will take a few minutes for breathing to fully stop.
We need a medic to give us a full answer I think.

Steve

[Pierre]

It's not mumbling Fish.
If we accept his timing for leaving home as 3.30 or about 3.30, I believe the times do not fit.
I could equally argue do you have something to place him there? I do not think you do.
However such gets us nowhere as I am sure you agree.
Hopefully one of the hypothesis in part 3 will allow us both to debate the issue in real depth, rather than as a sideshow so to speak. Who knows we may end up agreeing on part of it.

Steve

I follow this discussion with great interest. I am certain that there are very great difficulties with any approach trying to measure time in the past, after the past, from the sources left from the past, even if you have the sources for regulated speed for the police beats.

For historians, such sources are normative sources, they are regulations, but they do not show us the speed of any particular individual in the past. They merely show us the norm for the speed, what the regulation in a document was.

Is it a speed in the past or is it a speed on paper?

That is the question I think no one will have the opportunity to answer with enough validity and reliability.

And so, because of this and other source problems, anyone who tries to discuss and examine Minutiae in Buckīs Row will have these problems.

But as I said, I follow the discussion with interest, since it is an interesting problem.

And I am certain that you Steve have a chance to do much better than Fisherman. For obvious reasons.

Cheers, Pierre

[Elamarna]

I just posted this Daily News quotation to Rainbow: "He and the man examined the body, and he felt sure he detected faint indications of breathing."

Nothing genuinely uncertain about that, but I know others say "he fancied he felt a movement" and so on. Generally speaking, though, I find Rainbow may well have a better case than "some" (ehrm) are willing to admit...

Maybe we should leave it there, though. We wonīt get any further.

I have responded yesterday I think looking at various reports out of 10 2 the daily news and the Woodford Times were the strongest . 2 others while suggesting some breathing were far from certain. And one said there was no sign of breathing.

So somewhat inconclusive I think and agree probably best to let it be.

Steve

[Fisherman]

Not in my understanding, it's a lower level function that controls breathing, and there is also a degree of feedback from various sensors in the body. So my understanding is that it will take a few minutes for breathing to fully stop.
We need a medic to give us a full answer I think.

Steve

But does not that lower level function belong to the brain activity? Which cannot be measured? And if not, what governs it? Do you know?

Yes, a medic would be nice.

[Pierre]

hi Rocky
first off-we don't know cross was the name he was known by. all we know is he used Lechmere on official documents and Cross on this Nichols issue.
The question is why?
If he was guilty he might wanted to keep his common name out of the paper but still was cautious about a flat out lie by giving police a totaaly false name and address. and he certainly couldn't give a false address without serious problems if the police found out about that!

I also agree with you re other nonsense suspects. but I don't think lech is one of them either. He is exactly the type of person (or "witness") that needs to be looked closely IMHO.

The could-haves are many.

Could have wanted to protect his wife, kids, mother. Could have used Cross regularly at work.

One thing is for certain: He did not lie to fool the police. Cross and Lechmere were his names and he used one of these names.

Pierre

[Fisherman]

I have responded yesterday I think looking at various reports out of 10 2 the daily news and the Woodford Times were the strongest . 2 others while suggesting some breathing were far from certain. And one said there was no sign of breathing.

So somewhat inconclusive I think and agree probably best to let it be.

Steve

Which one said there was no sign of breathing? And how was it worded?

[Elamarna]

But does not that lower level function belong to the brain activity? Which cannot be measured? And if not, what governs it? Do you know?

Yes, a medic would be nice.

I am not sure if those automatic systems are included in that statement or not.
There are feedback receptors in the aortic arch and areas but I am not sure if they feed only back to the brain or locally as well.

The best I can find on the internet for those brain dead is within minutes but it no more pricise than that.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Which one said there was no sign of breathing? And how was it worded?

On way home. It's on my laptop so I will post once I am in

Steve

[Pierre]

I think the Daily News is the most adamant source: "He and the man examined the body, and he felt sure he detected faint indications of breathing."

So itīs not as if you have no case, on the contrary.

So "detected" is the word of the journalist?

And the expression "felt sure" is the expression of a journalist?

Pierre

[Pierre]

Fisherman,

I wish you add that to the documentary, let the people know the truth..

Thanks

The truth about what?

Pierre

[Elamarna]

But does not that lower level function belong to the brain activity? Which cannot be measured? And if not, what governs it? Do you know?

Yes, a medic would be nice.

If it really does stop within say 1 minute. It does make it highly unlikely that Paul felt anything.

If it were say up to 4minutrs that may suggest the throat is cut second.

If it's longer we have nothing I think.

This is what I have wanted to debate all weekend, data to support the suggestion..

Am glad you are back. Bet you never believed you would hear that.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Which one said there was no sign of breathing? And how was it worded?

It's the only inquest report of Paul where he says he thinks she is dead!

However it fits very well with the Lechmere reports of the same event.


The Times 18/09/88

"He knelt down to see if he could hear her breathe, but could not, and he thought she was dead"

However later he says:
"He touched the breast , and then, fancied he felt a slight movement"

To me he is confused himself. Was the movement breathing or not ? and if so why earlier say he thought she was dead.


Steve