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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #21  
Old 12-10-2015, 06:33 PM
mklhawley mklhawley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosella View Post
This is an intriguing subject, and although I wouldn't describe Jack as a copycat killer I'm sure he did take some interest in the Pranzini murders of the year before. (Interesting isn't it that the Paris Morgue always photographed the bodies it received?)

If Jack had visited Kahn's museum prior to its closure in London in 1873 he would have been very young wouldn't he, if he was in his late 20's in 1888, as some descriptions suggest?

With regard to these 'anotomical Venuses' I have read that prior to the closure of these museums (and afterwards) smaller versions of these models were on sale to the general public via market stalls and the like. Perhaps the Ripper availed himself of the opportunity and had a look at female internal organs before proceeding on?

Hi Rosella,

Here are some more coincidences... In January 1888, the year of the murders, Comstock and the New York City police raided at least four of the public anatomical museums in the Bowery district. Comstock was said to have ripped apart one of the anatomical Venus models.

Now, across the English Channel. The Musée Dupuytren in Paris, France, had an anatomical Venus in the 1880s.

...and there were anatomical models displaying the female anatomy in London, which will be a later discussion.

In view of this, our serial offender may have easily been inspired to reproduce an anatomical Venus. That said, I'm the last person to accept that Jack the Ripper was in his twenties in 1873.

Sincerely,
Mike
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  #22  
Old 12-10-2015, 07:16 PM
Mayerling Mayerling is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown View Post
Jeff:
The article you referred to about the General's wife & Pranzini was in the July 19, 1887 edition of the Pall Mall Gazette.
Thanks Howard.
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  #23  
Old 12-10-2015, 08:01 PM
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SirJohnFalstaff SirJohnFalstaff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mklhawley View Post
New York Times of 31 August 1887 reported:

The triple murder in the Rue Montaigne, for the commission of which Henri Pranzini has just surrendered his head to the guillotine, was one of the most sensational tragedies which even Paris has furnished to the criminal records of the world… Marie Regnault, who was also known as Madame de Montille, was found on the floor of her chamber dead, her throat cut and her body terribly mutilated. Lying near the door leading from the chamber to the drawing room was the dead body of Annette, whose throat had also been cut, and in her bed in another apartment was little Marie Gremeret, her head almost severed from her body by the murderer’s knife. [Author emphasis added].

Sincerely,

Mike
I don't know, Mike, but the French newspapers of the week of the murder only talk about throat slashing and defensive wounds on the arms.

EDIT: sorry, I'm trying to post screenshots of actual French articles, but apparently, the sizes are problematic. So let me send you a link instead, if you can read French. All the articles from March and April from Le Petit Parisien.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k473888k
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Last edited by SirJohnFalstaff : 12-10-2015 at 08:09 PM.
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  #24  
Old 12-10-2015, 09:12 PM
Shaggyrand Shaggyrand is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirJohnFalstaff View Post
I don't know, Mike, but the French newspapers of the week of the murder only talk about throat slashing and defensive wounds on the arms.
I have looked a bit for any description of mutilations but haven't found any yet. The only direct reference to mutilations I have seen was the NYT article quoted earlier and a New Zealand paper's account of his execution which has lifted its description of the crime straight from the NYT article. The engravings from the mortuary photos don't show anything other than slit throats. Not that that means anything.
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  #25  
Old 12-11-2015, 01:08 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosella View Post
This is an intriguing subject, and although I wouldn't describe Jack as a copycat killer I'm sure he did take some interest in the Pranzini murders of the year before. (Interesting isn't it that the Paris Morgue always photographed the bodies it received?)

If Jack had visited Kahn's museum prior to its closure in London in 1873 he would have been very young wouldn't he, if he was in his late 20's in 1888, as some descriptions suggest?

With regard to these 'anotomical Venuses' I have read that prior to the closure of these museums (and afterwards) smaller versions of these models were on sale to the general public via market stalls and the like. Perhaps the Ripper availed himself of the opportunity and had a look at female internal organs before proceeding on?
Others propose that he was 38 in 1888, Rosella... Interesting with the stalls sale of Venuses!
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  #26  
Old 12-11-2015, 04:15 AM
mklhawley mklhawley is offline
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Hi SirJohn and Shaggyrand,

The close proximity of the Nichols murder (and date) suggests Jack the Ripper may very well have visited the Chamber of Horrors wax museum with an effigy of Henri Pranzini in his deathstate, his execution. It would not have had a display of the women, probably just a write up of the reason for his execution. My reference to being a copycat was more for a short title than an exact motive.

Sincerely,

Mike
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  #27  
Old 12-11-2015, 06:49 AM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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This isn't directly related, except to prove that what one sees can affect a mind in disturbing ways: somewhere I came across a reference to a serial killer who stated his reason for cutting open women's stomachs was because as a child he had seen an exhibit of a model of a pregnant woman with a window in her abdomen showing the fetus inside.
I cannot remember which killer, or where I found it mentioned (maybe in one of Errata's posts at this forum), but it would seem to lend credit to the notion that a killer might want to recreate something he'd seen in a museum.
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  #28  
Old 12-11-2015, 07:05 AM
mklhawley mklhawley is offline
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Hi Pat,

The crime historian and author Elisabeth Wetsch commented on Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper:

The roots of Sutcliffe’s homicidal rage are difficult to trace. His family appears to have been torn by dark suspicions, on his father’s part, of infidelity by Peter’s mother, and the boy’s opinion of all women may have suffered in an atmosphere of brooding doubt. As a young man, he found employment with a local mortuary, and was prone to “borrow” jewelry from the corpses; in his comments, easily dismissed as “jokes” by his co-workers at the time, there is a hint of budding necrophilia, more disturbing than the strain of larceny. A favorite outing for the would-be ripper was a local wax museum, where he lingered by the hour over torsos that depicted the results of gross venereal disease.

Sincerely,

Mike
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  #29  
Old 12-11-2015, 08:20 AM
MysterySinger MysterySinger is offline
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I think a JTR who was 28 in 1888 would have easily been at a very impressionable age before 1873.
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  #30  
Old 12-11-2015, 08:38 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysterySinger View Post
I think a JTR who was 28 in 1888 would have easily been at a very impressionable age before 1873.
True enough - but if the Ripper and the Torso killer were one and the same, as implied by the similarities involded in the Chapman, Kelly and Jackson cases, then we may need a more mature killer in the first torso murders than a boy of 13-14 years.
Otherwise, I quite agree.
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