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  #41  
Old 05-18-2018, 11:15 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Hi Steve,
On the show I asked what the significance of Bucks Row, as an example, has towards his theory and he indicated that just by murdering in the manner that he did, inflicting the wounds that he did, in imitation of ritual slaughter, would be enough to point in the direction of a Jewish perpetrator. I tend to wonder if the Jews were scapegoats for most all of the crime in the East End at the time, as most recent immigrants as a class usually are, so that if a crime is committed by a non-Jew and it remains unsolved for any length of time, eventually Jews of that certain class would be suspected by a healthy percentage of the gentile population anyway.
Hi Jonathan

That was a good question, unfortunatly i dont buy the ritual slaughter angle.
Of course a point you all missed on the podcast, or at least i did not pick it up was that the very first finger pointing by Locals around Bucks Row was not at members of the Jewish community but at those working at Harrison, Barber. Tomkins, Mumford and Brittion are highlighted by the locals, who put grafiti on the gates and the Press.
It was only after the Police announced them clear that the accusations stopped.

To me if you meant to point at a group, you commit the murder in an area of high occupancy of that group. Not in an area with less than 5%, such as Bucks Row, yes it is close to a Jewish Cememtry, but areas just to west had a far higher concentration.
While Bucks Row apears to mark the beging of lower jewish occupancy to the East, Dorset street stands out as an area of equally low Jewish occupancy in an area of otherwise high occupancy, almost an island.

I love the research, but i feel the theory with regards to the motive of the killer is less than convincing.


Steve
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  #42  
Old 05-18-2018, 11:27 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Buck's Row, now Durward Street, adjoins Brady Street, the site of a disused but important Jewish cemetery. The site of Nichols' murder and the cemetery are, I'd guess, just under a third of a mile apart:

Attachment 18627

I can't recall off the top of my head what the Jewish connection to Dorset Street is but, if there was one, I'm sure Stephen will explain.
Hi Gareth,
Yes i of course am well aware of the cementry, i have some photos of it in the forth coming book, but its not close enough in my opinion to imply any sort of Link to the Jewish community.
The arkel map (agreed it some 10 years later) shows less than 5% occupancy by the Jewish community in both Bucks Row and Dorset Street.

When looked at with the comments i have made in the reply to Jonathan above, it just does not work for me.

Its an interest theory for a motive, just not one i agree with.


Steve

Last edited by Elamarna : 05-18-2018 at 11:42 AM.
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  #43  
Old 05-18-2018, 11:44 AM
cnr cnr is offline
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Not yet read False Flag, however got Jewbaiter last year and listened to the podcast.

One serious issue i have with Stephen's theory is that if the aim emwas to point a finger at the jeeish community why did 2 of the C5 occurr in high non jewish resident streets: Bucks Row and Dorset Street, that to me seriously questions the theory.

Not sure if its been touched on.

Interesting book, with great historical perspective on late 19th century East London.

Steve
Hi Steve,

I've just made a few quick comments (below) by way of discussing some of the points you raise.

It was the nature of the barbaric, or 'non-English', nature of murders themselves which was meant to provide the inculpatory signature - and indeed, it did: note racist street talk and anti-Jewish riot on the day Chapman was killed.

I propose that JTR used whatever was at his disposal to make his point, and that he evolved in being able to throw the switch this way or that, as circumstance permitted or called out to him. As a killer, he strikes me as a quintessential opportunist. And just like real life, nothing in this case is perfectly static, black over here, white over there. The lab approach is not really on offer - I don't say that disparagingly; maybe just as a way of acknowledging what we're left to grapple with.

Dorset Street might have been considered an 'English island in a Jewish sea', demographically. As I argue in the two editions of my book, circumstance may well have led JTR to that particular island - but the island was still in Spitalfields and linked to a series. The overkill involved (literally), was supposed to get the message across beyond all reasonable doubt. He overplayed his hand I believe, and the resulting outpouring of horror backfired on him - hence the need to wander into Commercial Street police station and re-establish the narrative.

There is evidence of migratory outbreaks east along Whitechapel Road and Commercial Road, from the main area of Jewish settlement. Certainly, both the attacks on Nichols and Wilson, happened not far from Jewish cemeteries. And we have evidence that already, around Bucks Row, there was a notable Jewish presence - see quote below. Or alternatively (since you have 'Jewbaiter', pls refer to the 'end of chapter 13 notes and map). This is from the Echo edition of 6 September, 1888 - the day Nichols was buried.
There were large crowds around Buck’s-row, this afternoon, the numbers being augmented by many Jews, now observing one of their special holidays.
...and thanks for your kind comments about my research. Also, please note my new sign-off, below - it's probably the most important part of this post.

Stephen - I'm not here to convince anyone; I just want to go home.
http://www.tweeddailynews.com.au/new...mpage/3177827/
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  #44  
Old 05-18-2018, 11:45 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Jonathan and Gareth,

Maybe Stephen does not see the actual location of the murders as being important in themselves. Particularily if he feels the implied ritual slaughter is enough on its own.

Steve
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  #45  
Old 05-18-2018, 11:51 AM
cnr cnr is offline
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The police had their views and they were there but my contention on the graffito is http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...=2290&page=269 , post #2687.
Didn't they search for the writer,asking the residents of the dwelling with no results? But your point on why it was the ripper who wrote it or the police thought it was him is interesting.But it also all could be coincidences and not connected.
Thanks Varqm. My apologies, I'd missed this earlier. (I'm still getting the hang of this).

I would like to imagine that Long's senior colleagues arrived at their conclusions with respect to his (and Halse's) evidence correctly and diligently, by the book, leaving no stone unturned - including the search of the building which you mention ("every door", if I'm not mistaken ?).

At the same time, it may be that they were, occasionally, putting the pieces together as part of an inter-related sequence or bigger picture, that may or may not, be fully visible to us as burghers of 2018. It's possible, as you suggest, that they did not definitively seek to nail down every aspect, in it's own right as though existing in a vacuum unto itself - for better or worse.

Who's to say why, exactly, they came to the conclusion/s they did ? As I've said elsewhere, we have a fragmentary knowledge of the episode, and I wish the case notes had more to tell us. We are at a distinct disadvantage in so many ways - and I'm reminded of it often.

Ultimately, what speaks to me is the question of 'blame', and that the 'Jews' were already being "blamed" for the murders. Also interesting, the graffito's thematic relationship to the early morning's other events. It's a personal perspective, but maybe it was also present in the logic of the police - and there are indeed suggestions along those lines.

Be assured, I am genuinely interested to know whether there were any police dissenters... or among officialdom, more broadly.

I know of the bureaucrat, Lushington's somewhat out of kilter interpretation - compared to those of the police - but even he seemed to think it genuine. I wonder whether we know of other, less orthodox-inclined official opinions on the matter...

Stephen
http://www.echo.net.au/2018/04/rippe...-tweed-author/
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  #46  
Old 05-18-2018, 12:02 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by cnr View Post
Hi Steve,

I've just made a few quick comments (below) by way of discussing some of the points you raise.

It was the nature of the barbaric, or 'non-English', nature of murders themselves which was meant to provide the inculpatory signature - and indeed, it did: note racist street talk and anti-Jewish riot on the day Chapman was killed.

I propose that JTR used whatever was at his disposal to make his point, and that he evolved in being able to throw the switch this way or that, as circumstance permitted or called out to him. As a killer, he strikes me as a quintessential opportunist. And just like real life, nothing in this case is perfectly static, black over here, white over there. The lab approach is not really on offer - I don't say that disparagingly; maybe just as a way of acknowledging what we're left to grapple with.

Dorset Street might have been considered an 'English island in a Jewish sea', demographically. As I argue in the two editions of my book, circumstance may well have led JTR to that particular island - but the island was still in Spitalfields and linked to a series. The overkill involved (literally), was supposed to get the message across beyond all reasonable doubt. He overplayed his hand I believe, and the resulting outpouring of horror backfired on him - hence the need to wander into Commercial Street police station and re-establish the narrative.

There is evidence of migratory outbreaks east along Whitechapel Road and Commercial Road, from the main area of Jewish settlement. Certainly, both the attacks on Nichols and Wilson, happened not far from Jewish cemeteries. And we have evidence that already, around Bucks Row, there was a notable Jewish presence - see quote below. Or alternatively (since you have 'Jewbaiter', pls refer to the 'end of chapter 13 notes and map). This is from the Echo edition of 6 September, 1888 - the day Nichols was buried.
There were large crowds around Buck’s-row, this afternoon, the numbers being augmented by many Jews, now observing one of their special holidays.
...and thanks for your kind comments about my research. Also, please note my new sign-off, below - it's probably the most important part of this post.

Stephen - I'm not here to convince anyone; I just want to go home.
http://www.tweeddailynews.com.au/new...mpage/3177827/
Thank you for the considered reply,
I will just refer to Bucks Row, as its my main area of interest at present.
The Echo article is interesting, however the level of Jewish occupation increased significantly once one reached Bakers Row at the end of Whites Row.
As I said to Gareth I do not consider the cemetry to be close enough to the murder site to imply any link to the Jewish community to the locals. And the first who were accused were the workers at Harrison, Barber which suggests the locals made no such connection.

Sorry Stephen, i am not enamoured with the ritualistic slaughter idea. My sole issue here is i just do not see any attempt by the killer in Bucks Row to point at the Jewish community.
I sadly remain unconvinced, but we never all agree.

However, i do like the book, and it gives great insight into the situation in 1888.

And thank you again for taking the effort to reply so promptly and courteously



Steve

Last edited by Elamarna : 05-18-2018 at 12:10 PM.
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  #47  
Old 05-18-2018, 12:11 PM
cnr cnr is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Hi Gareth,
Yes i of course am well aware of the cementry, i have some photos of it in the forth coming book, but its not close enough in my opinion to imply any sort of Link to the Jewish community.
Hi again Steve,

Not to harp on, but I just make the quick point that the cemetery does feature in an apocryphal and anti-Semitic episode of the Ripper tale.

One of the men who found Nichols’ body supposedly pointed in the direction of the Jewish cemetery and said that the murderer was “probably some sneaking Yid who wouldn’t pay for his fun”*.

Stephen
http://www.timesofisrael.com/were-th...mitic-frameup/

* cited in, The Identity of Jack the Ripper, David McCormick (London, 1959), p.26
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  #48  
Old 05-18-2018, 12:23 PM
cnr cnr is offline
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Default Elamarna...

Thanks for all your comments, Steve.

Just to be clear. I'm not proposing a 'ritual murder' angle in and of itself - there's no such thing as 'Jewish ritual murder'. Just a twisted individual's understanding of the garbage he was reading in the newspapers; ie the racist notions regarding the blood libel swirling around in those years. His was a dramatic re-interpretation of all the hype, for his own purposes.

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing or having different perspectives. After 130 years, the case demands it IMHO.

All the best with your work, Steve.

Stephen
http://www.timesofisrael.com/were-th...mitic-frameup/
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  #49  
Old 05-18-2018, 12:37 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by cnr View Post
Hi again Steve,

Not to harp on, but I just make the quick point that the cemetery does feature in an apocryphal and anti-Semitic episode of the Ripper tale.

One of the men who found Nichols’ body supposedly pointed in the direction of the Jewish cemetery and said that the murderer was “probably some sneaking Yid who wouldn’t pay for his fun”*.

Stephen
http://www.timesofisrael.com/were-th...mitic-frameup/

* cited in, The Identity of Jack the Ripper, David McCormick (London, 1959), p.26
Stephen
The issue I have there is that such a report does not fit with the comments of the Two who found Nichols, Lechmere and Paul at all. Indeed they were not even sure she was dead according to the press (Paul Lloyds Weekly News) and the inquest reports. One wonders who such a comment was made to?


I dont suppose you have the source McCormick claimed for that.
I strongly suspect it is not factual.



Steve
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  #50  
Old 05-18-2018, 12:52 PM
cnr cnr is offline
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Default Elamarna...previous post...

Yes, I agree.

It's why I was super-keen to stress the word, 'apocryphal' . Oh, yeah.

The point I was making, was regards the potential for the cemetery to fall into the web of perceptions regarding the murder.

I look forward to the findings of your aforementioned, upcoming research.

Stephen
http://www.timesofisrael.com/were-th...mitic-frameup/

Last edited by cnr : 05-18-2018 at 12:55 PM.
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