Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Varqm 24 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - by DJA 27 minutes ago.
Torso Killings: JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful. - by Varqm 39 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - by Simon Wood 41 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - by DJA 51 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - by Wickerman 3 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - (28 posts)
Torso Killings: JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful. - (14 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - (4 posts)
General Discussion: My profile of the ripper - (2 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #101  
Old 11-16-2015, 05:12 AM
curious4 curious4 is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,748
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
I though I should offer an example of what I mean cd....discussions that suggest Israel Schwartz was a valued witness, and minute scrutiny on what he claimed happened.

The records that exist do not indicate that Israel Schwartz or his story were entered in any form into the Inquest records, nor is there any record he or his story was intentionally withheld. So any attempt to find clues as to what really happened to Liz Stride will not be found within that tale or from that source.
Swanson thought enough of his evidence to include it in a report to the Home Office.

Best wishes
C4
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 09-24-2017, 10:43 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
Inactive
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,407
Default

[quote=Pierre;358965]

Quote:
Shall we try to make our short definition of the three?

My suggestion:

Victimology:

Poor women often addicted to alcohol selling their bodies cheaply and/or vagabonding in Whitechapel or the City

MO (modus operandi):

Execution in places with a high risk of fast discovery

Signature:

Honour based mutilations and posing
I agree with this except from the victimology.

Pierre
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 09-24-2017, 10:52 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 4,435
Default

[quote=Pierre;430385]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post



I agree with this except from the victimology.

Pierre
In what way is your view of this now different?


Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 12-01-2018, 01:59 PM
Varqm Varqm is online now
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 598
Default

The characteristics,in my opinion that somehow mattered,left by the killer:

1) foreign accent

2) little taller than the victim,then compared to the
height of the victim.

3) not uncomfortable to be seen with the victims minutes before their murders.

4) Dates of the murders,end of the month or the 8th.

5) direction from Mitre Square to Goulston.

6) Cox's description.

7) experience with a knife and inside the body,animals and/or human - slaughtering/butchery/post mortem/vivsection

8) human anatomical knowledge

All based on the inquests only.The police were also looking at the inquests,the materials they submitted to the coroner,for "leads".They had nothing substantial/good outside of it, just rumors,bad/unreliable witnesses and police official's take on the case.The inquests were the closest thing we have on what happened,anything outside of it were/are secondary.


-------
__________________
Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
M. Pacana
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 12-01-2018, 02:11 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,010
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
The characteristics,in my opinion that somehow mattered,left by the killer:

1) foreign accent

2) little taller than the victim,then compared to the
height of the victim.

3) not uncomfortable to be seen with the victims minutes before their murders.

4) Dates of the murders,end of the month or the 8th.

5) direction from Mitre Square to Goulston.

6) Cox's description.

7) experience with a knife and inside the body,animals and/or human - slaughtering/butchery/post mortem/vivsection

8) human anatomical knowledge

All based on the inquests only.The police were also looking at the inquests,the materials they submitted to the coroner,for "leads".They had nothing substantial/good outside of it, just rumors,bad/unreliable witnesses and police official's take on the case.The inquests were the closest thing we have on what happened,anything outside of it were/are secondary.


-------
Agree with all accept foreign accent. Any witness who heard suspects speak never mention an accent. On the contrary, its normal english. Only mrs long mentions anything about a foreigner... but only saying he looked foreign, and she only saw him from the back.

Id wager he was english local and gentile to boot.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 12-01-2018, 02:32 PM
Batman Batman is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,852
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varqm View Post

7) experience with a knife and inside the body,animals and/or human - slaughtering/butchery/post mortem/vivsection

8) human anatomical knowledge

All based on the inquests only.
However, Dr. Bond, who was MJK's medical examiner was given all the details from Nichols to Eddowes by Anderson in order to compile what we call today a meta-review of data.

10 November he reported his finding.

8. In each case the mutilation was inflicted by a person who had no scientific nor anatomical knowledge. In my opinion be does not even possess the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer or any person accustomed to cut up dead animals.

What Dr. Bond is saying here is that Dr. Philips is mistaken and not only that but there is evidence AGAINST even experience cutting up dead animals.

This is coming from a man who was the examiner of MJK whom JtR got to spend the most time on and used his knife the most with.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.

Last edited by Batman : 12-01-2018 at 02:34 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 12-01-2018, 07:54 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,863
Default

Dr. Bond's profile of the killer is what I find most interesting.

“The murderer must have been a man of physical strength and of great coolness and daring. There is no evidence that he had an accomplice.....
The murderer in external appearance is quite likely to be a quiet inoffensive looking man probably middleaged and neatly and respectably dressed. I think he must be in the habit of wearing a cloak or overcoat or he could hardly have escaped notice in the streets if the blood on his hands or clothes were visible.
…..he would probably be solitary and eccentric in his habits, also he is most likely to be a man without regular occupation, but with some small income or pension. He is possibly living among respectable person's who have some knowledge of his character and habits and who may have grounds for suspicion that he is not quite right in his mind at times.”


I agree with that in every respect.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 12-01-2018, 08:23 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,863
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
.....

8. In each case the mutilation was inflicted by a person who had no scientific nor anatomical knowledge. In my opinion be does not even possess the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer or any person accustomed to cut up dead animals.

What Dr. Bond is saying here is that Dr. Philips is mistaken and not only that but there is evidence AGAINST even experience cutting up dead animals.

This is coming from a man who was the examiner of MJK whom JtR got to spend the most time on and used his knife the most with.
You say Bond was MJK's medical examiner?, he was invited to the autopsy by Phillips. Any surgeon's attending the autopsy required the consent of the physician in charge, that was Dr Phillips.
Dr Phillips was the chief "medical examiner" in the Kelly case.

The principal document to assess the mutilations would have been the autopsy notes by Phillips. Dr Bond's report for Anderson is both secondary in importance, and brief.
Phillips saw the mutilations of Chapman, Stride, Eddowes & Kelly first hand, so I would defer to Phillips with respect to the mutilations. Dr Bond was known to voice contrary opinions to those of his peers on other occasions.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 12-02-2018, 12:06 AM
Varqm Varqm is online now
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Agree with all accept foreign accent. Any witness who heard suspects speak never mention an accent. On the contrary, its normal english. Only mrs long mentions anything about a foreigner... but only saying he looked foreign, and she only saw him from the back.

Id wager he was english local and gentile to boot.
9) should be,he killed between past midnight and 5:20 AM - Cadosche "I heard a voice say "No".

Agreed on foreign accent.He looked foriegn. not talked.Wrong memory/interpretation.Brown,Lawende and co.,Cox did not hear anything from the "man".


---
__________________
Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
M. Pacana

Last edited by Varqm : 12-02-2018 at 12:22 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 12-02-2018, 12:25 AM
Varqm Varqm is online now
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
However, Dr. Bond, who was MJK's medical examiner was given all the details from Nichols to Eddowes by Anderson in order to compile what we call today a meta-review of data.

10 November he reported his finding.

8. In each case the mutilation was inflicted by a person who had no scientific nor anatomical knowledge. In my opinion be does not even possess the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer or any person accustomed to cut up dead animals.

What Dr. Bond is saying here is that Dr. Philips is mistaken and not only that but there is evidence AGAINST even experience cutting up dead animals.

This is coming from a man who was the examiner of MJK whom JtR got to spend the most time on and used his knife the most with.

I have been reading some of Prosectors's posts and it's interesting.Prosector had experience "I have operated on the abdomen many hundreds of times".
All quoted text from Prosector.

It seems JTR nedded to know how to a) severe the intestines from their mesenteric attachments (Chapman,Eddowes),not to "cause the abdominal cavity to fill with liquid small bowel content,lift the small intestines out of the abdomen so he could have a clear field" in (b) removing the uterus (Chapman,Eddowes),c) "deliberately removed a section of the descending colon in order to get direct access to the left kidney" (Eddowes), d) Invaginating the sigmoid into the rectum (Eddowes),"done to stop faeces, which is largely stored in the sigmoid and rectum", "from oozing back into the abdominal cavity",e) possibly the choosing of the left kidney instead of the right (Eddowes), researching why the left kidney not the right,it's mostly used today for kidney transplant because the left renal vein is longer,easier to cut and "sew back in".

"I believe that he might have been a failed medical student or an enthusiastic amateur. In the mid 19th century it was possible to pay for access to dissecting rooms to watch or even take part and I have plenty of evidence for that if anyone is interested".

----
__________________
Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
M. Pacana
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.