Was JtR a necrophile?

[RockySullivan]

Dr Bond thinks that the worker was wrong who claimed the parts had not been there long. His testimony is very interesting and his medical opinion indicates the workers were wrong. I don't see how they could not notice. I think they may have been lying. More I look into the whitehall case the more I suspect one of the workers is involved.

Mr. Thomas Bond, F.R.C.S., was again examined. He said: - I was sent for to the Embankment site of the new police offices on the 17th. I went into the recess of the vault where the body was found, and I found there a human leg partially buried. It was uncovered; but it had not been removed from the place where it was found. I examined the earth which had covered it, and I found that this gave unmistakable evidence of having covered the leg for several weeks - that the leg had been there for several weeks. Decomposition had taken place there, and it was not decomposed when placed there. The upper part of the leg was in a good state of preservation; but the foot had decomposed, and the skin and nails had peeled off. The limb was removed, and next morning it was examined by Mr. Hibbert and myself. We found that the leg had been divided at the knee joint by free incisions, and very cleverly disarticulated without injury to the cartilages. The limb and foot agreed with the arm and hand in general character - in general contour and in size. We had no doubt that the leg belonged to the body and to the arm. I took the opportunity, I may say, while in the vault to examine the spot where the body was found, and I am quite sure that the last witness is wrong as to the body not having been there a few days before. The body must have lain there for weeks, and it had decomposed there.

The CORONER. - You think it had decomposed in that spot?

Mr. Bond. - Yes, the decomposition was of a character of a body only partially exposed to the air. The brickwork against which it had leant was deeply covered with the decomposed fluid of the human body turned black, and it could not have done that in a day or two. The stain is not superficial, but the brick work is quite saturated. I should think it must have been there quite six weeks when found - from August. There was no mark of a garter on the leg, and there were no corns on the foot, which was well shaped. (Times - 23 October 1888)

Bond casebook page

[jerryd]

More I look into the whitehall case the more I suspect one of the workers is involved.

You may be right Rocky,

Can you see the problem with these two statements?

Richard Lawrence, labourer, 40, Sterndale-road, Battersea, stated that on the Saturday he placed for safety, at the end of the vault, on a mortar board, until the following Monday morning, a basket of workmen's tools, and on the latter day, at ten minutes past six o'clock in the morning, he fetched them out. On neither occasion did he notice anything extraordinary. The tools had not been disturbed in the meantime. A fellow workman (Young) had asked him to take the tools there. About half-past three o'clock that afternoon he saw, for the first and the last time, the parcel of remains as it was brought out into the light. The body might have been there at the time he groped in the dark into the vault, but he was strongly impressed with the idea that it was not.

Alfred Young, carpenters' labourer, stated that on the Saturday, about twelve o'clock, before the finding of the parcel of remains, he went to the vault, taking with him a basket of workmen's tools, and placed it on the mortar board to which the last witness had referred, but he noticed nothing particular in this place. There was no light or lamp.

[RockySullivan]

You may be right Rocky,

Can you see the problem with these two statements?

Richard Lawrence, labourer, 40, Sterndale-road, Battersea, stated that on the Saturday he placed for safety, at the end of the vault, on a mortar board, until the following Monday morning, a basket of workmen's tools, and on the latter day, at ten minutes past six o'clock in the morning, he fetched them out. On neither occasion did he notice anything extraordinary. The tools had not been disturbed in the meantime. A fellow workman (Young) had asked him to take the tools there. About half-past three o'clock that afternoon he saw, for the first and the last time, the parcel of remains as it was brought out into the light. The body might have been there at the time he groped in the dark into the vault, but he was strongly impressed with the idea that it was not.

Alfred Young, carpenters' labourer, stated that on the Saturday, about twelve o'clock, before the finding of the parcel of remains, he went to the vault, taking with him a basket of workmen's tools, and placed it on the mortar board to which the last witness had referred, but he noticed nothing particular in this place. There was no light or lamp.

Jerry, I think so. In one version Young asks Lawrence to place the tools in the vault, in the second version young places then there himself. Sharp eye although it could be the press getting it wrong. Sounds like they can't keep their stories straight. Lawrence is a particular POI as he's from battersea and I think only him & young kept their tools in this specific section of the vault. We might be on the right trail here

[John G]

Jerry, I think so. In one version Young asks Lawrence to place the tools in the vault, in the second version young places then there himself. Sharp eye although it could be the press getting it wrong. Sounds like they can't keep their stories straight. Lawrence is a particular POI as he's from battersea and I think only him & young kept their tools in this specific section of the vault. We might be on the right trail here

Hello Rocky,

Intriguingly MJR was initially referred to in some press reports as Mary Jane Lawrence. This seems to have been based on information supplied by a neighbour who stated that a man called Lawrence used to visit her from time to time- she assumed they were married.

[RockySullivan]

Hello Rocky,

Intriguingly MJR was initially referred to in some press reports as Mary Jane Lawrence. This seems to have been based on information supplied by a neighbour who stated that a man called Lawrence used to visit her from time to time- she assumed they were married.

John, wow that sounds like a good lead right there. Was the man ever identified? Sounds like someone the police would want to speak with

Apparently mrs Hewitt was the neighbor although it seems Lawrence remains a mystery man. He's described a drover who "lives with a dead woman(?)" perhaps a more accurate statement than mrs Hewitt realized ha ha

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7153

A woman named Mrs. Hewitt, living at 25, Dorset-street, supplied our reporter with some information. She said she was up till twelve o'clock last night. She heard nothing. Her husband was up at four o'clock each morning, and he heard nothing of a disturbing character. At eleven o'clock this morning she had occasion to look out of the window which affords a view of the court; but she could see nothing. At about half-past eleven she heard the shouts of a mob, and she then discovered that a horrible murder - it makes me shiver to think of it, she said - had been committed. She also stated that a man - a drover - called on her some time ago. He asked her if a summons came in

THE NAME OF LAWRENCE

to accept it. This man Lawrence, she says, she believes lived with the dead woman. He was off and on in London, sometimes being absent for five or six weeks.

[John G]

John, wow that sounds like a good lead right there. Was the man ever identified? Sounds like someone the police would want to speak with

Hello Rocky,

No, I believe very little is known about the man and the police don't seem to have investigated him. Of course, the first Torso victim was discovered in 1873 in Battersea, so Richard Lawrence would have been about 25 then. Interestingly, the Times reporter who reported on the Whitehall Torso was of the opinion that whoever left the body must have been familiar with the layout of the building, i.e. because it would have been problematic getting to the exact spot where the torso was found, not least because of the darkness.

[RockySullivan]

Hello Rocky,

No, I believe very little is known about the man and the police don't seem to have investigated him. Of course, the first Torso victim was discovered in 1873 in Battersea, so Richard Lawrence would have been about 25 then. Interestingly, the Times reporter who reported on the Whitehall Torso was of the opinion that whoever left the body must have been familiar with the layout of the building, i.e. because it would have been problematic getting to the exact spot where the torso was found, not least because of the darkness.

The foreman was also convinced of the same and I've read the workers came under suspicion at the inquest.

[jerryd]

Hello Rocky, John,

Elizabeth Jackson's last known address was 14 Turks Row, close to Chelsea Barracks. The interesting thing about this is the fact that Chelsea Barracks housed the 2nd Battalion, Scots Guards. According to Paul Begg's research the Guards transferred to Dublin in August 1888 and then to Curragh where they stayed until returning to Chelsea Barracks in June of 1889.

Notice the dates, and remember Mary Kelly supposedly had a brother, Johnto, in the 2nd Battalion, Scots Guards.

[jerryd]

Another of MJK's aliases was Lizze Fisher. The undergarments of Elizabeth Jackson had the name L.E. Fisher written on them. And also, coincidentally, Lizzie Fisher is the name of one of Catherine Eddowes sisters.

[Batman]

Another of MJK's aliases was Lizze Fisher. The undergarments of Elizabeth Jackson had the name L.E. Fisher written on them. And also, coincidentally, Lizzie Fisher is the name of one of Catherine Eddowes sisters.

The claim is that Jackson got them at a flee market right?

[jerryd]

The claim is that Jackson got them at a flee market right?

She purchased them used, yes.

[RockySullivan]

I wonder if there might be a connection between Francis Tyler (the man who worked for Amelia Richardson) and the one of the whitehall workers. The worker who was questioned and admitted being at the whitehall site the day the man spotted someone with a parcel...was he young or lawrence the same men who kept their tools in the spot where the torso was found and the limbs buried. The leg was only partially buried and estimated to have been there for six weeks. Something's up with these guys.

The men lawrence and young who kept their tools where the torso was are not the ones who reported it meaning they could have thought it was a safe spot. Here is the man who reported finding it. I strongly suspect young & or Lawrence is involved with the murder.

Frederick Wildborn was the first witness examined, and he said: I live at 17, Mansell-road, Clapham Junction, and am a carpenter employed by Messrs. Grover and Sons at the New Central Police Office at Westminster. On Tuesday last I was at the buildings, and my work took me to all parts of the place during the day. At six o’clock on the morning of the previous day I had occasion to go to the vaults to find my tools, my labourer having taken them there on the Saturday. I then noticed what I took to be an old coat thrown on one side. It was lying in the corner of a recess. It was very dark there, even in the middle of the day. I could not find my tools - my labourer having, in fact, already removed them. In the evening at 5.30 I went once more to the vaults, and I then noticed the parcel again. There was no smell, not in the least. I drew my mate’s attention to the parcel, and struck a wax vesta to look at it.
The Coroner: Was that the first time you had noticed it particularly? - Yes; but we did not know what it was, and came away.
[Coroner] Did you report the circumstance? - Not then. I saw the parcel again the next morning. About one o’clock Mr. Brown, the assistant foreman, came down to where I was at work, and I then informed him of what I had seen. We both went and looked at the parcel, and we thought it seemed curious.
[Coroner] Was it opened in your presence? - No.
[Coroner] Were you in the vault on the Saturday? - I was not there for a week before.
[Coroner] When you were last there did you perceive anything unusual? - No.
[Coroner] Did your labourer say anything to you about it? - No. I heard of the discovery of a body about three-quarters of an hour after Mr. Brown had seen the parcel.
[Coroner] Did the parcel remain in the same position from the Monday until you drew Mr. Brown’s attention to it? - Yes; when I lit the match was the first time I had noticed anything particular. There was some débris in the place.
[Coroner] Has this vault been used for putting your tools in for any length of time? - For some weeks until the last three weeks. I always placed my tools there from Saturday to Monday, because I considered them safer there than in the locker. I have not noticed any similar parcel before.
[Coroner] No one carrying such a parcel? - No.
[Coroner] Is there any difficulty in getting to the vault? - Yes, to a stranger.
By the Jury: There is a hoarding all round the buildings. Each time I had to strike a match in order to see the parcel. I got to the vault not by means of a plank, but of a compo floor. I was not at the works at all from the Saturday to the Monday. When I saw the parcel first I thought it was a workman’s old coat.

[RockySullivan]

The girl with the rose tattoo is such an interesting case. It's the only torso with which they found the head. The disposal is very similar to other torso cases especially the parcels & newspapers. But what was line powder used for in 1884? The medical profession? It should be a big clue. How many people would have access to it. The powder was heavily applied apparently. I'm not sure if the average an would have access to it.

Could it have been used as a cleaning product? Would night soil men possibly have access to it?

[Errata]

The girl with the rose tattoo is such an interesting case. It's the only torso with which they found the head. The disposal is very similar to other torso cases especially the parcels & newspapers. But what was line powder used for in 1884? The medical profession? It should be a big clue. How many people would have access to it. The powder was heavily applied apparently. I'm not sure if the average an would have access to it.

Could it have been used as a cleaning product? Would night soil men possibly have access to it?

Lime powder of line powder? The latter I can't say I've heard of. The former has been used in the form of quicklime to break down flesh and bone for the past 600 years or so. It's been used to make concrete since the Roman era. And farmers have been using it to change the pH in soil pretty much since the dawn of man. And there are a million uses for it beyond all that. Water filtration, pickling, as a preservative, whitewashing buildings... The stuff is everywhere. A trace presence is probably on every corpse ever, but an actual deposit of power or liquid on a corpse is probably used to melt flesh off of bone over the course of a few weeks. Quicklime can do it in a day or two.

[RockySullivan]

Lime powder of line powder? The latter I can't say I've heard of. The former has been used in the form of quicklime to break down flesh and bone for the past 600 years or so. It's been used to make concrete since the Roman era. And farmers have been using it to change the pH in soil pretty much since the dawn of man. And there are a million uses for it beyond all that. Water filtration, pickling, as a preservative, whitewashing buildings... The stuff is everywhere. A trace presence is probably on every corpse ever, but an actual deposit of power or liquid on a corpse is probably used to melt flesh off of bone over the course of a few weeks. Quicklime can do it in a day or two.

Chlorinated bleach powder