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Did the Canonical 5 know each other

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  • Did the Canonical 5 know each other

    Has anyone researched whether the 5 generally accepted victims of Jack the Ripper knew each other or had any connection?

    There is evidence to suggest that Catherine Eddowes may have known Mary Jane Kelly (a pawnbrokers ticket in her possession when murdered - see below) but it is not conclusive.

    Mustard tin containing two pawn tickets, One in the name of Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row, dated August 31, 9d for a man's flannel shirt. The other is in the name of Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street and dated September 28, 2S for a pair of men's boots. Both addresses are false.

    I'm sure someone has considered this previously, but in the FAQs I found this statement:

    Some theorists have suggested that the victims knew one another, though there is no evidence to support this idea. Although many of the victims did have lodgings, at various times, in the same small area of Whitechapel, it must be remembered that this district was wildly overcrowded with common lodgers – literally hundreds would huddle together in a single house, two, three or four to a bed. The possibility of course exists that two or more of the victims knew each other, but we have no reason to suspect they did.

    But I haven't found any detailed consideration of whether they knew each other. Have I just missed it?

  • #2
    I think Kate used Kelly as a pseudonym on various ocasions I do not think this is evidence she knew MJK.

    Given how close they lived from each other, the similarity of profession and habits offset against the huge number of people living in the East End and I think the conclusion must be drawn that at least some of the C5 knew ech other.

    Perhaps not by name, perhaps only by site or nickname...."Oh there's dark Annie coming in Mary, she looks a right sight."....."See that Long Liz has been fighting again Kate"...."Oh Black Mary singing again, do you hear Polly?"

    Yet we have no evidence any of them met, let alone knew each other but I think logic would suggest my scenario is possible, even probable.
    My opinion is all I have to offer here,

    Dave.

    Smilies are canned laughter.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by DirectorDave View Post
      I think Kate used Kelly as a pseudonym on various ocasions I do not think this is evidence she knew MJK.
      Quite so. Kate's common-law husband was named Kelly, so it would be a natural name for her to have used on occasion. Indeed, she was known as "Kate Conway" when her partner was Thomas Conway.
      Last edited by Sam Flynn; 10-06-2017, 02:58 AM.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        Quite so. Kate's common-law husband was named Kelly, so it would be a natural name for her to have used on occasion. Indeed, she was known as "Kate Conway" when her partner was Thomas Conway.
        I don't think its as easily dismissed Sam, she had children with Conway and even had his initials tattooed on her forearm. Within her last 2 aliases is almost the entire address of Mary Jane Kelly of 26 Dorset street, room 13 in the courtyard. The only thing missing is a single digit, the #2.

        I'm not contending that its evidence Kate knew of Mary, but since we have Irish roots and connections here I could imagine that within Irish circles locally the 2 had been exposed to each other. I would also imagine Dorset Street and perhaps Crossinghams as a probable common spot. The catch is that Kate would have had to have known her most recent address, which would mean she was in touch with or had knowledge of Marys activities within a relatively short window of time before her death.

        Ive had you admit that its a whopper of a coincidence if it is one before here, based on the context I suggest above.
        Michael Richards

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        • #5
          There is some suggestion that MJK went by the name of Barnett on occasion, so longevity of relationships and parenthood may be less of a deciding factor. What would be more natural than for Eddowes to have borrowed John Kelly's surname?
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
            Ive had you admit that its a whopper of a coincidence if it is one before here, based on the context I suggest above.
            I did? You must have caught me in a good mood
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              I did? You must have caught me in a good mood
              I cant believe that you are ever in a different state of mind Gareth.
              Michael Richards

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DirectorDave View Post
                I think the conclusion must be drawn that at least some of the C5 knew each other.
                I lived for two years in a crowded block of flats and at the end of that time I was still meeting people who had lived in the same block for as long as I had, but who I had never any memory of seeing, let alone meeting.

                So for that reason - in the absence of any evidence at all that any of them knew any other of them even existed - which you acknowledge - I don't see how such a conclusion 'must be drawn'.

                It's possible. I see it as being no more likely than it is unlikely.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Echo London Middlesex November 9, 1888


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                    Echo London Middlesex November 9, 1888


                    Nice work Jerry!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                      I don't think its as easily dismissed Sam, she had children with Conway and even had his initials tattooed on her forearm. Within her last 2 aliases is almost the entire address of Mary Jane Kelly of 26 Dorset street, room 13 in the courtyard. The only thing missing is a single digit, the #2.

                      I'm not contending that its evidence Kate knew of Mary, but since we have Irish roots and connections here I could imagine that within Irish circles locally the 2 had been exposed to each other. I would also imagine Dorset Street and perhaps Crossinghams as a probable common spot. The catch is that Kate would have had to have known her most recent address, which would mean she was in touch with or had knowledge of Marys activities within a relatively short window of time before her death.

                      Ive had you admit that its a whopper of a coincidence if it is one before here, based on the context I suggest above.
                      Thanks Michael and Sam and DirectorDave, some interesting thoughts.

                      I guess the ticket could have said John Kelly, but in bad handwriting, and someone read it as Jane. But assuming it did say Jane Kelly, then while taking the point it might have been an alias, given Michael's post, it possibly bears closer scrutiny - particularly as she also appears to have known Annie Chapman (see posts above).

                      I don't have a theory which requires them to all know each other, but if it could be proved that they did, or that one of the five knew the other four, it might begin to suggest the victims were not random. Nowhere near proving that yet, but I think there is enough material to suggest it is worth researching and see where that leads.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                        Echo London Middlesex November 9, 1888


                        Hi Jerry

                        Thank you. This is extremely interesting to me.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hello you all!

                          One modest view; even if Mary Kelly knew Annie Chapman, it doesn't mean any close relationship.

                          Since she - and the others of the canonical five - could have been her aunt, thinking about the age gap. So, probably they were in different circles in the East End.

                          All the best
                          Jukka
                          "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                            Echo London Middlesex November 9, 1888


                            This is a very early report, published on the day Kelly was found dead, when all kinds of stories were circulating about her. In the very next paragraph of that report in the Echo, we read that:

                            "The murdered woman had one child, a little boy of between six and seven. The little fellow lived with his mother. This poor child was sent out this morning, when the mother returned to the room with the assassin. The gossip of the neighbourhood, or rather of the very court in which the house is situated, is to the effect that the man who is suspected of having committed the murder sent the child out to buy sweets and playing he found the place in commotion, for his mother had been discovered lifeless and bleeding, and the murder had fled."

                            Reader beware!
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by j.r-ahde View Post
                              Since she - and the others of the canonical five - could have been her aunt, thinking about the age gap. So, probably they were in different circles in the East End.
                              Indeed, Jukka.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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