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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #1  
Old 12-10-2018, 05:48 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Default Time after Time: Did JtR have a watch?

JtR seemed to know that he was under time constraints before his act would be discovered.

JtR indicates that he is able to murder within a window of time that seems to very generally occur in the middle of a PC's beat when he is at the opposite side of his beat to the crime. We know that the unfortunates aided him in this knowledge by taking to him to places where they knew he had the time to get what he paid for.

If JtR was timing things, even subconsciously, it would be better for him to wait with the unfortunate until an officer passes. For example, possibly Mitre Sq., Eddowes was in his embrace as they watched a PC come up Church passage, stop and turn. A few moments later and that is JtR's cue (and hers) to begin. This suggests another possibility. That PC witnesses did, in fact, see JtR with his victim shortly before he murdered them.

So in a way, JtRs timing for exsanguinating and mutilating is the same as quick sex... and probably the same thing in his sexual psychopathic mind.

Anyway, I wonder if JtR didn't actively time the beats. What I didn't know before and I do now, is that stopwatches were around in the 1800s and certainly by 1888 a lot of pocket watches had stopwatches and some even had marine chronometers. So it seems antique gear like this was well able to aid anyone in keeping to a time limit.

JtR seems to have some experience as a burglar. The way he aligns stuff he removes from some of his victims, on purpose, is not an uncommon thing for thieves, especially burglars to do. They do so as not to make noise. One could see the problem JtR would be up against with jangling items in their clothing as he throws stuff around. No, he carefully goes through everything as they bleed out and then he mutilates, as per Chapman. So not only with Eddowes was he mutilating under time constraints... but also robbing them. JtR is also a thief and it doesn't seem he is just behaving like a trophy keeper (which he seems to be), but the laid out pieces done purposefully (Eddowes thimble placed next to her finger) like a burglar would do.

It is interesting we have had suspects involving watches and theft.

BTW, an experiment to repeat what JtR did, should have the experimenter aware of the time constraint factor before they begin and should try to perform the same thing under those conditions. I think it's obvious that experiments to date have been done under pathology conditions, where time is not a constraint, well at least not rushing everything in a few minutes sort of constraints. I think one would find that JtR's slash and grab isn't that hard when the organs are virtually colour coded (no blood) after exsanguination for him to pick and choose after he has disembowelled them and the intestinal organs put aside (as he did from Chapman onwards).

So a pocket watch, even without a stopwatch, would be a useful tool for JtR. I wonder if he ever stood in archways watching with his timepiece out.

And no, this thread is not about a time machine movie involving JtR, but feel free to talk about that if you wish.
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  #2  
Old 12-10-2018, 07:41 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
JtR seemed to know that he was under time constraints before his act would be discovered.

JtR indicates that he is able to murder within a window of time that seems to very generally occur in the middle of a PC's beat when he is at the opposite side of his beat to the crime. We know that the unfortunates aided him in this knowledge by taking to him to places where they knew he had the time to get what he paid for.

If JtR was timing things, even subconsciously, it would be better for him to wait with the unfortunate until an officer passes. For example, possibly Mitre Sq., Eddowes was in his embrace as they watched a PC come up Church passage, stop and turn. A few moments later and that is JtR's cue (and hers) to begin. This suggests another possibility. That PC witnesses did, in fact, see JtR with his victim shortly before he murdered them.

So in a way, JtRs timing for exsanguinating and mutilating is the same as quick sex... and probably the same thing in his sexual psychopathic mind.

Anyway, I wonder if JtR didn't actively time the beats. What I didn't know before and I do now, is that stopwatches were around in the 1800s and certainly by 1888 a lot of pocket watches had stopwatches and some even had marine chronometers. So it seems antique gear like this was well able to aid anyone in keeping to a time limit.

JtR seems to have some experience as a burglar. The way he aligns stuff he removes from some of his victims, on purpose, is not an uncommon thing for thieves, especially burglars to do. They do so as not to make noise. One could see the problem JtR would be up against with jangling items in their clothing as he throws stuff around. No, he carefully goes through everything as they bleed out and then he mutilates, as per Chapman. So not only with Eddowes was he mutilating under time constraints... but also robbing them. JtR is also a thief and it doesn't seem he is just behaving like a trophy keeper (which he seems to be), but the laid out pieces done purposefully (Eddowes thimble placed next to her finger) like a burglar would do.

It is interesting we have had suspects involving watches and theft.

BTW, an experiment to repeat what JtR did, should have the experimenter aware of the time constraint factor before they begin and should try to perform the same thing under those conditions. I think it's obvious that experiments to date have been done under pathology conditions, where time is not a constraint, well at least not rushing everything in a few minutes sort of constraints. I think one would find that JtR's slash and grab isn't that hard when the organs are virtually colour coded (no blood) after exsanguination for him to pick and choose after he has disembowelled them and the intestinal organs put aside (as he did from Chapman onwards).

So a pocket watch, even without a stopwatch, would be a useful tool for JtR. I wonder if he ever stood in archways watching with his timepiece out.

And no, this thread is not about a time machine movie involving JtR, but feel free to talk about that if you wish.
hi batman
I think it had more to do with the ripper just being smart and aware. he probably let the victims take them to somewhere safe to do there business-relying on their experience of how much private time they would probably have. and seems like the normal amount of time to there business is about the all the time he needed to do his stuff.
and of course he was perceptive-seemingly bolting at the first sign of trouble even if he wasn't finished.

and of course he had a lot of luck.


plus he would need to be timing places that he pre picked, when as i mentioned, he more than likely let the victims take him to their spots.
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  #3  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:07 AM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Some good points Abby. You'd expect the victims to know where they wouldn't be disturbed by Police and possibly for how long. Cheers John
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Old 12-10-2018, 12:32 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post

I think it had more to do with the ripper just being smart and aware. he probably let the victims take them to somewhere safe to do there business-relying on their experience of how much private time they would probably have.


I would agree that the killer of the victims that were actually soliciting at the time meet the killer who was posing as a client...and that, based on what is actually known...is Polly and Annie..only. We have no idea why the other Canonicals were where they were, and NO evidence that they were actively soliciting.

and of course he was perceptive-seemingly bolting at the first sign of trouble even if he wasn't finished.


Interesting supposition, of course there is no evidence at all that ANY of the unsolved murder cases were "incomplete", and none that there was a disturbance that might have ended what was planned early.

and of course he had a lot of luck.


A smart man makes his own luck.

plus he would need to be timing places that he pre picked, when as i mentioned, he more than likely let the victims take him to their spots.

If he followed the victims lead, how did he pre-pick the location?
I think the most honest way to answer this question is that based on what we know would be the time alotted to be alone with the recently murdered victims, using witnesss comings and goings, is that even if he had a watch he would have little time to refer to it, and in most cases, little or no light to use.

His miraculuous avoidance of being seen I believe has more to do with his previous expertise doing the actions taken..in some form anyway..and a good knowldege of the local streets, lanes and alleyways.
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Old 12-10-2018, 12:51 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
I think the most honest way to answer this question is that based on what we know would be the time alotted to be alone with the recently murdered victims, using witnesss comings and goings, is that even if he had a watch he would have little time to refer to it, and in most cases, little or no light to use.

His miraculuous avoidance of being seen I believe has more to do with his previous expertise doing the actions taken..in some form anyway..and a good knowldege of the local streets, lanes and alleyways.
Hi Michael
Quote:
I would agree that the killer of the victims that were actually soliciting at the time meet the killer who was posing as a client...and that, based on what is actually known...is Polly and Annie..only. We have no idea why the other Canonicals were where they were, and NO evidence that they were actively soliciting.

agree. I don't think stride or Kelly were actively solicitating.

Quote:
If he followed the victims lead, how did he pre-pick the location?
exactly-that was my point. sorry if it wasn't clear.


Quote:
His miraculuous avoidance of being seen I believe has more to do with his previous expertise doing the actions taken..in some form anyway..and a good knowldege of the local streets, lanes and alleyways.

agree. I think he was a street smart local who had a lot of practice before he started murdering. and I think he was also used to getting away with it.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #6  
Old 12-10-2018, 01:54 PM
Batman Batman is offline
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How many suspects have timepieces connected with them?

Joseph Isaacs
Hutchinson's Astrakhan man
James Maybrick
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  #7  
Old 12-10-2018, 02:01 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
How many suspects have timepieces connected with them?

Joseph Isaacs
Hutchinson's Astrakhan man
James Maybrick
looks like only the improbable ones
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-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #8  
Old 12-10-2018, 03:12 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Isaacs didn't have a watch until he stole one in December, after the murders.
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Old 12-11-2018, 05:26 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi Michael



-agree. I don't think stride or Kelly were actively solicitating.



-exactly-that was my point. sorry if it wasn't clear.





-agree. I think he was a street smart local who had a lot of practice before he started murdering. and I think he was also used to getting away with it.

Im glad we do see somethings in the same light Abby.
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Old 12-11-2018, 05:33 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Isaacs didn't have a watch until he stole one in December, after the murders.
Watch aside, he is still a Person of Interest for me...at least for the room 13 murder.

I also wonder whether we hear about him earlier....Issac Kozebrodksi is referred to as Issac[s] by Louis, and Louis says he and Issac[s[] went out together for help after 1am. Issac K however told reporters that same night within an hour of the murder that he was "sent" by Louis, alone, closer to 12:45am.

Since Fanny was at her door from 12:50 until 1am continuously and since she not see or hear Louis arrive at 1am, this may be the warning for unfettered belief in what Louis said. Or Eagle for that matter.

2 employees of the club,...the same club that was closed in 1892 because it was considered to be an anarchist club by that point. The same men that were arrested in 1889 for assaulting the police with clubs. the same club that was receiving threats the week before the speech that night when the guest speaker was supposed to be a leading anarchist, William Morris.
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