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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #11  
Old 10-24-2018, 12:34 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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People back then, perhaps more so than now, would have known that the most effective way to kill a pig or lamb would be to slit its throat. Jack didn't need to learn by trial and error that (metaphorically) jabbing a pig with a skewer isn't the quickest or tidiest means of going about killing and eviscerating it.
Sam
Not forgetting, that in olden times the cutting of the throat was the main way persons were killed, unlike today when more people die from stab related injuries than having their throats cut. So In my opinion, in any event the cutting of the throats of all these victims is not set in stone as the work on one lone killer.

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  #12  
Old 10-24-2018, 12:38 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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The issue of light was going to be Pt II of this topic.

I see his traces of experiments as evidence for JtRs inexperience. Instead of preconceptions about how people should be, this tells me a lot of things about who JtR is with respect to knowledge about bleeding out. He simply didn't know for sure he won't get very bloody even after he had severed Nichols neck. In short, he had no clue and was learning by himself.

https://www.casebook.org/images//rip.../woundsman.jpg
This explains the double puncture wounds on Nichols private parts, the several cuts and then eventually the bigger gash.

She is like a midway point where he goes from hitting Tabram on the head, probably from behind, to punching Nichols out (see autopsy) and slicing her throat. No more mistakes like Emma Smith getting away and Martha Tabram with a blade stuck in her sternum that is supposed to puncture her heart. No more stabbing frenzy to kill them. However, will he get bloody as he did with the others? He waits until Nichols has bled out a lot and then he experiments and finds he can do a lot more than just cut next time. He even figures out that he has time for designs on their faces waiting for the body to vacate as much blood as possible. No wonder he went from Stride to Eddowes so quick. He was on a mission to test all of these findings out.

I want to elaborate more on what I mean by blood on him. We must assume first of all this means what it means. If he has lots of blood on him then he will stand out. So not a butcher or anyone experienced with cutting up animals. His lack of medical understanding is clear from the experimentation. This is more like someone who has no business reason being around blood. However, there is a deeper reasoning for reducing blood on himself.

The deeper reason was provided at least a decade ago when analysts noticed that these types of lust murders are doing something which is a bit of a psychological conflict, namely getting the blood of someone they have an immense hatred for on themselves. It is almost as if someone they hate has spat on them. They feel sullied or made dirty by this interaction with the unfortunate. It would even be used to emotionally shake him during interrogations. To suggest he literally got blood on his hands. Anyway, that's just a psychological point and doesn't really add or take from anything.

Anyway what I hope I have done here was give reasons for why Nichols has those scratches on her abdomen and puncture wounds and a sort of half attempt at opening her up her womb.

... and yes, he obviously did need some form of light for this to work out. I would like to know if soldiers were issued 'fussee' lighters for certain specialized tasks.
Even if he had a light he would have had to have three hands, one to hold the light, and the other two to perform the alleged removal of the organs, and I dont buy an accomplice theory.

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  #13  
Old 10-24-2018, 12:40 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Sam
Not forgetting, that in olden times the cutting of the throat was the main way persons were killed, unlike today when more people die from stab related injuries than having their throats cut. So In my opinion, in any event the cutting of the throats of all these victims is not set in stone as the work on one lone killer.
Quite so, Trevor.
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  #14  
Old 10-24-2018, 12:46 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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As I think I've observed previously, the diagrams in that particular article are rather outdated and not very accurate. Reading the admittedly sparse surviving accounts of Nichols' wounds, it appears that she'd sustained far worse damage than is depicted in that drawing, which makes it look as though she'd been clawed by a cat.
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  #15  
Old 10-24-2018, 12:48 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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He did seem to know which way to cut the neck to not get blood spray onto himself.
But there may not even have been any arterial spray.

Here are two questions asked of Dr Biggs a modern day forensic patholgist the first in relation to arterial spay and the second with regards to in what positions the victims may have been in when killed.

Q. Evidence from the crime scenes seems to show a distinct lack of arterial blood spray. Now given the throats were cut, and in some cases the carotid arteries were severed is there any explanation for the absence of arterial spray?

A. Blood loss could have been great if major neck vessels were severed. It is possible for much of the bleeding to remain within the body, though, so it would not necessarily result in a large volume of blood being visible externally. The lack of documented arterial blood pattern is not surprising as, despite being common in textbooks; arterial spurting is actually quite uncommon ‘in the wild’. Arteries, even large ones, usually go into acute spasm when cut, providing very effective control of bleeding (at least initially). The large arteries in the neck are quite well ‘hidden’ behind muscles and other structures, so they can be missed by even very extensive cuts to the neck. Also, even if cut, the initial ‘spray’ is blocked by the surrounding structures such that blood either remains inside the body or simply gushes / flows / drips out of the external skin hole rather than spurting.

Q. The doctors in their reports offer opinions as to in which position the killer was in relation to the victims when carrying out the murders. Are these opinions reliable or simply guesswork?

A. In answer to your question, it is really impossible to say with certainty how the wounds were inflicted in terms of ‘reconstructing’ events from the appearance of wounds. This is something that used to be quite ‘popular’ even up until relatively late on in the 20thcentury, with pathologists stating confidently that a left-handed dwarf with a limp inflicted the injury from behind using a specific knife, etc. Nowadays it is accepted that there is so much variation that in such cases, apart from a few ‘extreme’ scenarios that can be more-or-less excluded, just about anything is possible.

So in other words, the killer could have been behind the victim (with them both standing), or he (or she!) could have been ‘above’ the victim (kneeling, squatting, crouched, lying, stooping...) whilst she lay upon the ground (+/- prior strangling). Or it could have happened during a highly dynamic struggle, with all manners of grappling, twisting and fortuitous slashing going on. Only persons present at the time really know what went on (and we can’t ask them!), and nobody can be certain about a ‘reconstruction’ now based on photos / medical records. If a number of envisaged scenarios are actually ‘possible’, then nobody can really argue in favor of a particular one any more than another.

I suppose we will again see the armchair medical experts on here argue against what he says, as is the norm.

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  #16  
Old 10-24-2018, 12:50 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Default My post explains the concept of Overkill. A JtR trait.

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So In my opinion, in any event the cutting of the throats of all these victims is not set in stone as the work on one lone killer.
Emma Smith died from internal injuries in a hospital due to a ruptured peritoneum from her private parts being attacked. She didn't have her neck slit.

Martha Tabram didn't have her neck slit either. She was stabbed to death. She died from bleeding.

Neither displays that the perpetrator had any experience with the slaughtering of animals by cutting their throats.

Between Emma Smith, Tabram and Nichols, we have the evolution of a serial killer who doesn't know how to murder someone quickly and when they figure that out, doesn't know if slicing the neck completely down to the spinal cord will be enough to make adventuring into her abdominal cavity less bloody.

The fact he sliced her neck down through all the major veins and arteries tells us that it MORE than what was needed to just cut the pulmonary artery. This is overkill and shows he hadn't got a clue.
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  #17  
Old 10-24-2018, 12:53 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
But there may not even have been any arterial spray.

Here are two questions asked of Dr Biggs a modern day forensic patholgist the first in relation to arterial spay and the second with regards to in what positions the victims may have been in when killed.

Q. Evidence from the crime scenes seems to show a distinct lack of arterial blood spray. Now given the throats were cut, and in some cases the carotid arteries were severed is there any explanation for the absence of arterial spray?

A. Blood loss could have been great if major neck vessels were severed. It is possible for much of the bleeding to remain within the body, though, so it would not necessarily result in a large volume of blood being visible externally. The lack of documented arterial blood pattern is not surprising as, despite being common in textbooks; arterial spurting is actually quite uncommon ‘in the wild’. Arteries, even large ones, usually go into acute spasm when cut, providing very effective control of bleeding (at least initially). The large arteries in the neck are quite well ‘hidden’ behind muscles and other structures, so they can be missed by even very extensive cuts to the neck. Also, even if cut, the initial ‘spray’ is blocked by the surrounding structures such that blood either remains inside the body or simply gushes / flows / drips out of the external skin hole rather than spurting.

Q. The doctors in their reports offer opinions as to in which position the killer was in relation to the victims when carrying out the murders. Are these opinions reliable or simply guesswork?

A. In answer to your question, it is really impossible to say with certainty how the wounds were inflicted in terms of ‘reconstructing’ events from the appearance of wounds. This is something that used to be quite ‘popular’ even up until relatively late on in the 20thcentury, with pathologists stating confidently that a left-handed dwarf with a limp inflicted the injury from behind using a specific knife, etc. Nowadays it is accepted that there is so much variation that in such cases, apart from a few ‘extreme’ scenarios that can be more-or-less excluded, just about anything is possible.

So in other words, the killer could have been behind the victim (with them both standing), or he (or she!) could have been ‘above’ the victim (kneeling, squatting, crouched, lying, stooping...) whilst she lay upon the ground (+/- prior strangling). Or it could have happened during a highly dynamic struggle, with all manners of grappling, twisting and fortuitous slashing going on. Only persons present at the time really know what went on (and we can’t ask them!), and nobody can be certain about a ‘reconstruction’ now based on photos / medical records. If a number of envisaged scenarios are actually ‘possible’, then nobody can really argue in favor of a particular one any more than another.

I suppose we will again see the armchair medical experts on here argue against what he says, as is the norm.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
A "medical armchair expert" like Jason Payne James says that if ALL the arterial vessels in the neck are cut, then there can be no acute spasm stopping the blood from exiting quickly.

This is not in conflict with what Biggs says, and it is quite useful to know.
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  #18  
Old 10-24-2018, 12:54 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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As I think I've observed previously, the diagrams in that particular article are rather outdated and not very accurate. Reading the admittedly sparse surviving accounts of Nichols' wounds, it appears that she'd sustained far worse damage than is depicted in that drawing, which makes it look as though she'd been clawed by a cat.
The wounds are described in the autopsy report. All we need to know is that there are two puncture wounds on her private area, then these 3 or 4 slices and then the large jagged gash.

The experimentation is right there. He is bleeding her out and then at different points testing to see how much blood comes out depending on the type of cut he does. Punctures first, slices next and finally the larger deeper more frenzied jagged rip.
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  #19  
Old 10-24-2018, 12:57 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

So in other words, the killer could have been behind the victim (with them both standing), or he (or she!) could have been ‘above’ the victim (kneeling, squatting, crouched, lying, stooping...) whilst she lay upon the ground (+/- prior strangling). Or it could have happened during a highly dynamic struggle, with all manners of grappling, twisting and fortuitous slashing going on. Only persons present at the time really know what went on (and we can’t ask them!), and nobody can be certain about a ‘reconstruction’ now based on photos / medical records. If a number of envisaged scenarios are actually ‘possible’, then nobody can really argue in favor of a particular one any more than another.
There is no blood down her front. A trait of the C5 murders and more.

Her neck wasn't slit while she was standing vertically. Gravity and blood spray confounds such notions.

Chapman's arterial spray is on the fence, low down.

They were all prostrate before their necks were severed.

The crime scene descriptions of blood pooling also confirm this.
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  #20  
Old 10-24-2018, 01:00 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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  • JtR stabbed Smith in the private region and got very bloody.
What reason is there to doubt that Emma Smith was murdered by a gang?
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