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  #21  
Old 10-02-2018, 02:01 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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Pizer was in the press prior to Chapman and shortly after Nichols was murdered. Women had come forward to say he assaulted them.

When Chapman was murdered Pizer was arrested.
Hi Batman it is a good point regarding Pizer and could have set the killer down that path. I was just thinking of the other options the police were exploring after the murder of Polly. I believe they and the press had started linking her murder with Emma and Martha.
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  #22  
Old 10-02-2018, 02:27 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Hanbury Street was predominantly Jewish-occupied
Not according to the 1891 Census, at least not in the immediate vicinity of Number 29. Here's a list of the residents of each dwelling from that Census, with numbers shown in brackets where there was more than one resident of a particular name. Names prefixed with an asterisk show persons where at least the heads of household were born in Eastern Europe (their children often weren't), and names without asterisks were British or Irish.

No 17: Farrow (x8); Dewar
No 19: *Feiler (x8); *Wildman (x4); *Arancheit
No 21: Heather; *Goldberg (x2); Barton; Johnston; Lewis
No 23: Nay (x2); Woolnough
No 25: *Freedman (x7); *Wusufski (x2); Kirwin (x2); Reynolds; Magell (x7); Rakins (x3); *Nagle (x6); Backham (x2)
No 27: Cadosch (x3); Marston (x6); Calvert (x3); Dempsey (x2); Taylor (x3); Connor (x2)
No 29: Costello (x7); Ford; Wilmore (x2); Hardiman (x3); Richardson (x2); Gilbody (x2); Blank; Davis (x5); Kidell
No 31: *Lightstone (x6); Tattersall; Horsburgh (x2); *Goldberg (x3); Pickett (x2); Parish; Eldred (x2)
No 33: Harris (x2); Read; Holloway; Martin; Jacobs; Nash (x2); *Schuman (x4); *Finklestein (x2)
No 35: Lewis (x5); Sexton; Payne; Sutton (x4); Urquhart (x2); Churches (x3); Iles (x2); Maladine; Smith; Jones (x2); Manlove (x4)
Barbers Yard: Blasket (x7); Paul
No 37: Felix (4); Brauancourt; Jones [interestingly, Mr & Mrs Felix were from North Wales]
No 39: Edwards; Mewes
No 41: Harris (x2); Vowles (x2); Grayston (x7); Pittman (x5); Elliot
No 43: *Freedman (x10)

After a (very) rough totting-up, I make that 201 residents of whom 146 were British/Irish and 55 who weren't, meaning that approximately three-quarters of the residents were not Jewish. There was an even bigger gentile majority in the 1881 Census, so the prevailing picture in 1888 could have been somewhere in between. Either way, I don't see much evidence of Jews predominating in that particular area.
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  #23  
Old 10-02-2018, 02:35 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is online now
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Not according to the 1891 Census, at least not in the immediate vicinity of Number 29. Here's a list of the residents of each dwelling from that Census, with numbers shown in brackets where there was more than one resident of a particular name. Names prefixed with an asterisk show persons where at least the heads of household were born in Eastern Europe (their children often weren't), and names without asterisks were British or Irish.

No 17: Farrow (x8); Dewar
No 19: *Feiler (x8); *Wildman (x4); *Arancheit
No 21: Heather; *Goldberg (x2); Barton; Johnston; Lewis
No 23: Nay (x2); Woolnough
No 25: *Freedman (x7); *Wusufski (x2); Kirwin (x2); Reynolds; Magell (x7); Rakins (x3); *Nagle (x6); Backham (x2)
No 27: Cadosch (x3); Marston (x6); Calvert (x3); Dempsey (x2); Taylor (x3); Connor (x2)
No 29: Costello (x7); Ford; Wilmore (x2); Hardiman (x3); Richardson (x2); Gilbody (x2); Blank; Davis (x5); Kidell
No 31: *Lightstone (x6); Tattersall; Horsburgh (x2); *Goldberg (x3); Pickett (x2); Parish; Eldred (x2)
No 33: Harris (x2); Read; Holloway; Martin; Jacobs; Nash (x2); *Schuman (x4); *Finklestein (x2)
No 35: Lewis (x5); Sexton; Payne; Sutton (x4); Urquhart (x2); Churches (x3); Iles (x2); Maladine; Smith; Jones (x2); Manlove (x4)
Barbers Yard: Blasket (x7); Paul
No 37: Felix (4); Brauancourt; Jones [interestingly, Mr & Mrs Felix were from North Wales]
No 39: Edwards; Mewes
No 41: Harris (x2); Vowles (x2); Grayston (x7); Pittman (x5); Elliot
No 43: *Freedman (x10)

After a (very) rough totting-up, I make that 201 residents of whom 146 were British/Irish and 55 who weren't, meaning that approximately three-quarters of the residents were not Jewish. There was an even bigger gentile majority in the 1881 Census, so the prevailing picture in 1888 could have been somewhere in between. Either way, I don't see much evidence of Jews predominating in that particular area.
Just off the top of my head !!
Wasn`t there a Jewish swimming pool somewhere opposite 29 Hanbury Street

Ed: ignore above. I was thinking of the Salvation Army Women`s Refuge, 194 Hanbury Street, run by Capt Ward, on the site of a derelict swimming pool.

Last edited by Jon Guy : 10-02-2018 at 02:58 AM.
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  #24  
Old 10-02-2018, 03:39 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Why are you missing houses?

43-17 = 26 houses not accounted for.

You have 14 houses accounted for. That's just under half that number.

Are they missing, not immediate on the road or why did you leave them out?

Seems that's nearly 50% of that possible population omitted from the calculation.
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  #25  
Old 10-02-2018, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
Hi Batman it is a good point regarding Pizer and could have set the killer down that path. I was just thinking of the other options the police were exploring after the murder of Polly. I believe they and the press had started linking her murder with Emma and Martha.
Yes, there were talks of this in the press, but it was soon forgotten because investigators likely believed they had suspects for those crimes. Emma was able to describe her attacker as a gang and Martha being seen with two soldiers.

Now today we can revise a lot of that, which I believe was done in the book The Bank Holiday Murders, however back then by the time Pizer was brought up all those connections were dismissed.

Heck if JtR was responsible for those murders, Pizer would have been a blessing to him.

I think the whole anti-semitic atmosphere gave him his best idea for cover and when it died down he committed the double event. He even planned Jewish areas he could hit in by the speed he made his way to Mitre Sq.,
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  #26  
Old 10-02-2018, 04:38 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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He even planned Jewish areas he could hit in by the speed he made his way to Mitre Sq.,
Hard to plan on traversing many non-Jewish areas, given the demographics.
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  #27  
Old 10-02-2018, 04:54 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
Why are you missing houses?

43-17 = 26 houses not accounted for.

You have 14 houses accounted for. That's just under half that number.

Are they missing, not immediate on the road or why did you leave them out?
Nothing so sinister. I was just using the census info already gathered on Casebook, where there's a handy graphic to click on. (Can't remember the page offhand.) I was very specific in saying "at least, those houses in the immediate vicinity of Number 29", so I wasn't hiding anything, if that's your implication.

Besides, a sample containing 201 residents should be quite sufficient to challenge the assertion that Annie Chapman was killed in a "predominantly Jewish" location, when she clearly wasn't.

Even if that stretch of Hanbury Street was somehow unusual, it would beg the question of why the Ripper "chose" to kill her in a mainly gentile part of the street, if he was so hell-bent on implicating the Jews. (I say "chose", because it's by no means implausible that the locations of ALL the murders were of his victims' choosing, not his.)
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  #28  
Old 10-02-2018, 05:12 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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(I say "chose", because it's by no means implausible that the locations of ALL the murders were of his victims' choosing, not his.)
That is a fair assumption Sam
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  #29  
Old 10-02-2018, 05:14 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Hard to plan on traversing many non-Jewish areas, given the demographics.
Then you should be able to connect the majority of other murders that happened in Jewish parts of London with Jews also.

Yet even the Ripper case doesn't have that.

Nichols.
Kelly.

or even in your own suggestion that neither was Hanbury St., for Chapman.

Which would be 3 out of 5 in your model.

Hard to coincidentally throw evidence under a piece of anti-semitic graffiti that apparently wasn't connected yet the Jews just left it there... or it was coincidentally done recently just as JtR coincidentally throw it there within the window that it appeared. What a stroke of luck eh? Just like the stroke of luck Stride's murder having direct anti-semitic connotations with the Lispki claim and just happening next door to a Jewish social club...

... and both murders happening within walking distance of each other as if one fled one and was in time to see another coming out of the drunk tank.

The whole origin of the GSG being unconnected is with Martin Fido who had to do this to make his Kosminski/Cohen suspect fit. PC Walter Dew thought it unconnected. So that would be his historical reference, but both Moore and Anderson believed it was the work of JtR.

In fact, investigators at the time understood that JtR was attacking the Jews. Sir Charles Warren even removed it to stop a riot. He knew JtR could have dropped it anywhere. If Long had of thought nothing of it they would have just taken the apron piece away, but he didn't and they didn't. They waited for photographs and suspected a deliberate placement.

It was raining. JtR knew he had to chalk up out of the rain which would wash away graffiti outside or make it hard to write in the first place. So he stood in out of the rain to do this. Could have done it anywhere, but went to Goulston St., which is still very close to the murder site. Also, he would have light.
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  #30  
Old 10-02-2018, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Nothing so sinister. I was just using the census info already gathered on Casebook, where there's a handy graphic to click on. (Can't remember the page offhand.) I was very specific in saying "at least, those houses in the immediate vicinity of Number 29", so I wasn't hiding anything, if that's your implication.

Besides, a sample containing 201 residents should be quite sufficient to challenge the assertion that Annie Chapman was killed in a "predominantly Jewish" location, when she clearly wasn't.

Even if that stretch of Hanbury Street was somehow unusual, it would beg the question of why the Ripper "chose" to kill her in a mainly gentile part of the street, if he was so hell-bent on implicating the Jews. (I say "chose", because it's by no means implausible that the locations of ALL the murders were of his victims' choosing, not his.)
Ah yeah, I am not suggesting you did anything deliberate, I am just wondering why some are missing because it would comprise approx another 50% of the sample population. Sample sizes are what can dramatically shift stats. Hence why large sample sizes are preferred in statistics.

I think when he went to murder Chapman that selecting a Jewish area wasn't a big deal like when he struck with Nichols and Kelly. They were already after Piser and if a gentile he could go where he wanted. Following Chapman, you had Piser being released days later, so the Jewish hysteria had been put on a stopper somewhat. It wasn't Piser, so that opened everything up again. Hence the attack next to the Jewish Social Club and the GSG to restart the Jewish hysteria again.
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