Did Jack kill more than three?

[nicole]

Hi all,

By tji,

As you probably would guess I am with Glenn and Fisherman in taking Stride out of the equation. (Sorry Tom )

I'm not too sure about Mary Kelly. Her killing has some trademarks of jtr and then with an about face includes completely different techniques than previously. Why can't these things ever be straightforward!

I have to agree. Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes were almost undoubtably killed by the same person.

Each of the other attacks are linked, individually and collectively, to these three. (Knife, timeline, geography, victim selection, unsolved, etc)

But other than the three mentioned, each of the other attacks have unassosiated characteristics.

In my opinion, there is not enough evidence with the other victims to support a connection with the above trio.

sincerely
Nicky

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

As there is not one jot of hard evidence with which to link the C5 murders [or +/- variations thereof] or point the finger at any one person, I gave up brain-cudgeling on the subject ages ago.

Whilst ploughing my own particular furrow, I found a very interesting essay on Jack the Ripper by Ted Remington, University of Iowa—

http://www.albany.edu/scj/jcjpc/vol10is3/remington.pdf

He begins with an interesting proposition—

"I will begin with an axiom that is central to the thesis developed in the rest of this essay: Jack the Ripper is a fictional character. By this, I do not mean that the five women traditionally considered Jack the Ripper's victims were not real or did not actually die. They were real people who in death left behind real family and friends and who at this moment lie in very real graves in and around London. What I am suggesting, however, is that virtually everything we know, or think we know, about Jack the Ripper is based on one sort of fiction or another. To put it another way, Jack the Ripper is a hoax."

It's well worth reading.

Regards,

Simon

[Barksey]

I'd propose:
Tabram - type of victim; posing/obscene display of body; rip to stomach and element of risk
Nichols
Chapman
Stride - type of victim; similarity of wound with next victim, and of bruising with prior victim; element of risk
Eddowes
Kelly - type of victim; similarity of wounds and removal of organs with previous victims; oosing of body; element of risk.

I'm also willing to contemplate other victims such as Mckenzie and Coles...

Jen

[Fisherman]

Caz writes:

"It's more a case of Jack being the only one we know was capable at the time"

Stride, Caz?

The best,
Fisherman

[robhouse]

Determining who the victims were depends primarily (in my opinion) on a detailed analysis of the wounds and mutilation of the victims. Secondarily on an analysis of victimology, body positioning, time and location of the murder, etc.

The C5 all show remarkable consistency in the wound characteristics, taking into account escalation of mutilation, and interruption in the case of Stride. Anyone who actually takes the time to read the post-mortem on Kelly for example will see that it is entirely consistent with the rest of the victims (ie. Glenn's C3). Any differences in Kelly are very simple explained by the simple fact that the killer had a long, uninterrupted period indoors in which he could perform more extensive mutilation. With the exception of the fact that the mutilation is more extensive (as for example Eddowes mutilation is more extensive than Nichols' etc), the characteristics of the wounds are very similar and consistent in all the C5.

So I would argue the C5, and also add a few earlier attacks, including Tabram.

R.H

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Well, as could be expected I do not agree with anything in Rob House's post. It doesn't mean that he and others who share this view are wrong, only that too many things about the murderer is being taken for granted.
As far as the so called 'similarities' are concerned, the only convincing element is the deep throat cut, while the mutilations as such more appear to be total butchery rather than the methodical mutilation we see in the others.
Not everything can be explained by 'escalation' and 'indoor venue arguments' - these points could of course very well be right in the end but they shouldn't be treated like a canon in order to rule out other scenarios.
Nor does the killer's approach to be the same in the Kelly murder, where the victim has been attacked directly with the knife and most likely tried to defend herself. This indicates a more clumsy appraoch and again - the old tedious argument regarding 'indoor crime scene' shouldn't be treated as a sole explanation.

Nor do I agree with the strange sentiment, that a 'detailed analysis of the wounds' should be superior to the victimology or other aspects. As in any normal murder investigation, the victimology and study of the personal relations of the victim should be treated with equal consideration. And in the case of Kelly, the victimology and study of motive certainly are of material importance, and possibly also in Stride's case.

I am not saying that Kelly definitely wasn't a ripper victim - I am more sure of that Tabram certainly wasn't - only that the elements in the cases of Nichols, Chaman and Eddowes share so many similaries and the same focus on certain parts of the body (as well as the killer's behaviour) that they are very difficult to disregard - elements which are less defined in the other murders and therefore have to remain open to debate (and thus shouldn't be included in any canon).

All the best

[Tom_Wescott]

Well, as could be expected I do not agree with anything in Rob House's post.

I'll need to go back and read Rob House's post because this is a sure sign he must be getting close to the truth!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Somehow I knew you were going to say that, like all other C5 supporters and 'inclusionists'.

All the best

[Graham]

As for me, I'd say:

Tabram (maybe)
Nicholls
Chapman
Eddowes
Kelly (possibly, perhaps probably)

I've always thought that the murder of Stride on the same night as Eddowes' was mere coincidence and that she was the victim of a bit of domestic.

There was too long a gap between Kelly and Coles, at least in my opinion. I can't see a determined serial-killer lying low for more than 2 years before striking again. And as I understand it, it seems that whoever killed Coles did have sufficient time to do more than merely cut her throat, but didn't. Sadler, it seems, had a substantiated alibi.

Cheers,

Graham

[perrymason]

I agree with Glenns disagreement with Mr House's post....that should make Tom happy.

To use wounds as the criteria for assigning these 5 victims to a hoaxers nom de plume is far from the correct approach. No only are they almost all different in that respect, but it completely overlooks methodology....which I think would be something far more consistent. As it is... with 3 victims, a 4th only if interrupted....which is negated by the onsite professional medical opinion of the time of throat cut 20 minute to a half hour prior to his arrival...and a final victim who may have broken all prior "Ripper" patterns,... indoors, abdominal organs placed about her body rather than in the killers pocket, many many superflous wounds and cuts, meaning not made to enable access to something ...and its entirely possible she was sleeping when she meets her killer.

If you want to use just wounds, then you cannot exclude Alice McKenzie or others. Either way....you get no "Canon".

And Mr Wood is absolutely correct when he reminds that "Jack the Ripper" is not a human being, never was...he is a catch phrase, a nickname for someone that killed some street whores on the streets at night.

One of the expert investigators in this field, one that has contributed to the official documentation that we can access today....and someone I personally feel may have more information hidden away than many of us will ever possess on these crimes....has said here that he feels that he has never been satisfied himself, that more than 3 of The Canonical Victims should be assigned to one killer. Mary Ann (Polly) Nichols, (Dark) Annie Capman, and Kate Eddowes.

I personally would rather accept his Canon than "Bond-naughtens", because it makes much more sense overall.

Best regards all.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Michael,

Indeed. And we all know who this 'investigator' is, do we?

------------------

Nicole, tji,

I agree with your posts and like your openmindedness.

-----------------

Graham,

Although I doubt that Mckenzie and Coles were Ripper victims (nor would I rule out Sadler completely), it should be acknowledged that it is perfectly possible for a serial killer to lay low for a long time - such ' cooling off periods' could have several reasons - illness, locked up in jail for other offenses, a different or new life situation or just simply no urge to kill during that period. We have several examples of that, so we shouldn't rule out that possibility.
That being said, I would be careful about including Coles and McKenzie for other reaons.

All the best

[perrymason]

We do indeed Glenn, and I hope he returns post data crash. Havent seen hide nor hair of him since.

Time for a stroll by the water my friend.

Cheers Glenn.

[Barksey]

a final victim who may have broken all prior "Ripper" patterns,... indoors, abdominal organs placed about her body rather than in the killers pocket, many many superflous wounds and cuts, meaning not made to enable access to something ...and its entirely possible she was sleeping when she meets her killer.

Good evening
Venturing indoors might not be a break in the serial killer pattern: a killer murdered four prostitutes in Miami between August 1995 and March 1996. While three were killed in the outside a few feet from where they were last seen (two on railtracks, the third in a graveyard), the fourth was killed inside an abandoned gas station (apparently broken in to for this purpose). Profilers and police agreed this was probably in response to additional policing of the area - the killer had moved indoors in order to avoid capture. Parts of the signature were also altered in the indoors murder, however they were all committed by the same killer: Francisco del Junco. I think that while the differences between the murders are interesting and well worth exploring, there are also significant similarities which are enough to include Kelly in the 'canon'.
Jen

[perrymason]

Hi Jen,

Thats an interesting comparative, though in that case, we do know retrospectively whom precisely he killed, so its clear that he did alter location and as you say MO. Well, we dont have that luxury in these cases, because not one is solved, let alone attributed to someone having 5 known fixed victims.

And aside from wounds, which are in many ways dissimilar from all preceding victims...lets not forget the thigh stripping, or abdominal organs under the feet instead of in his pocket or "apron piece", and an erased face and heartless corpse....the way he may have encountered her is also a complete shift in his attributed traits...one of which is "man unknown to victims, going where they led". Mary may have been sleeping in her room in her bed.

Another of which is selecting middle aged prostitutes who had no home the night they were killed, and therefore fell under his scrutiny. A woman at home asleep alone in her own room in her own name is not where those types of women were at 2:00am most nights.

Mary Jane apparently did not solicit at all when her and Joe first moved there, his loss of job forced that back on her, and this is a young woman that lived a "degraded life" while riding around in carriages, or being a courtesan in Paris, she had expensive dresses at one time, and she is only 26ish...this is not the out of work char woman type that all 4 priors were.....this girl was apparently on the A circuit for East End whores at one time, Ill bet favoring guys like Blotchy if she did, wasnt all tea and biscuits for her.

And she was old enough to be a daughter to any one of the priors.

Cheers Jen.

[Vigilantee]

At least 8 victims (6 killed), and cyclical, no doubt about it

25 Feb Millwood (botched first attempt)

Other unreported botched attempts?

7 Aug Tabram (MO similarities with Millwood and Nichols

31 Aug Nichols (Classic)

8 Sept Chapman (Classic)

30 Sept Stride (too coincidental and similar)

30 Sept Eddowes (Classic)

October failures, too many cops, much 'heat'

9 Nov Kelly (Who else!! And he's moved indoors to dodge 'heat')

20 Nov Smith (Indoors again, but he's lost it, total failure)

Ripper dead or in asylum by Dec 10