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  #281  
Old 10-10-2018, 03:10 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Well, they were still in rent arrears on 9th November, and according to folklore "Kelly" met Mr. A while out on Commercial Street trying to borrow sixpence.
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  #282  
Old 10-10-2018, 03:21 PM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Well, they were still in rent arrears on 9th November, and according to folklore "Kelly" met Mr. A while out on Commercial Street trying to borrow sixpence.
So how does that show she hadn't earned anything from her 'occupation' in the past ten days and even possibly handed some of it over to McCarthy?

I'm sure you don't believe Kelly wasn't out on Commercial Street 'trying to borrow sixpence'. Unless Hutchinson was making it up, she was there trying to turn a trick or two. Whether she recognised Hutch as a 'friend' who might sub her a tanner or whether she was offering him sex for that price, we'll never know.
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  #283  
Old 10-10-2018, 03:56 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Because if your proposition was correct, an amount somewhat less than 27 shillings [6 weeks at 4/6 a week] would have been outstanding.

Personally, I don't believe Kelly existed, was in arrears, was out on Commercial Street, met Hutchinson or Mr. Astrakhan, or was murdered by JtR, but if you want to argue the ins and outs of a scenario which never took place, please be my guest.
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  #284  
Old 10-10-2018, 05:13 PM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Because if your proposition was correct, an amount somewhat less than 27 shillings [6 weeks at 4/6 a week] would have been outstanding.

Personally, I don't believe Kelly existed, was in arrears, waos out on Commercial Street, met Hutchinson or Mr. Astrakhan, or was murdered by JtR, but if you want to argue the ins and outs of a scenario which never took place, please be my guest.
What proposition?

I have no idea when Joe and Mary started to get into arrears with their rent. Or whether any of Mary's earnings or Joe's top-ups went towards reducing their debt to McCarthy.

I must be missing something, is there a source which tells us the debt was 27s on 30/10 and still that amount on 9/11?

If you say you don't believe Kelly even existed, why are you arguing the toss about the minutiae of her rent arrears?
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  #285  
Old 10-10-2018, 05:27 PM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Because if your proposition was correct, an amount somewhat less than 27 shillings [6 weeks at 4/6 a week] would have been outstanding.

Personally, I don't believe Kelly existed, was in arrears, was out on Commercial Street, met Hutchinson or Mr. Astrakhan, or was murdered by JtR, but if you want to argue the ins and outs of a scenario which never took place, please be my guest.
BTW Simon,

Thank you so much for your gracious permission to discuss Mary Kelly as if she existed and might have been a victim of the non-existent JTR. I'm sure all the other deluded fools who think she did and probably was are equally grateful.

🤔
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  #286  
Old 10-11-2018, 09:09 AM
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caz caz is offline
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any possibility that Mary was paying off her debt with sex?

do we know how moral McCarthy was?
how scrupulous a businessman he was?Any evidence he kept records of debt and payments from his tenants?

It may be one explanation why he would allow one of his tenants to get so far in arrears. just thinking out loud here.
But Abby, if Mary was paying off her debt with sex [or by doing odd chores for the McCarthys for example], she wouldn't have got so far in arrears, would she? If she truly was as badly in arrears [ie debt] as McCarthy appears to have claimed, then she wasn't 'paying off' that debt [ie the arrears] with cash or with anything else. No point in paying in other ways if the debt only keeps going up, never down.

Of course it's possible that McCarthy only claimed she was in debt to him by that much to stop tongues wagging that she may have been living there rent free in return for sexual services.

Love,

Caz
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  #287  
Old 10-11-2018, 09:17 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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It may be one explanation why [McCarthy] would allow one of his tenants to get so far in arrears.
I'm pretty sure I read McCarthy saying that more than one of his tenants were in arrears. Darned if I can remember where, though.
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  #288  
Old 10-11-2018, 09:58 AM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi MrBarnett,

Just because I don't believe any of this arrant nonsense is no reason for you to do likewise.

Enjoy.

Regards,

Simon
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  #289  
Old 10-11-2018, 11:26 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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But Abby, if Mary was paying off her debt with sex [or by doing odd chores for the McCarthys for example], she wouldn't have got so far in arrears, would she? If she truly was as badly in arrears [ie debt] as McCarthy appears to have claimed, then she wasn't 'paying off' that debt [ie the arrears] with cash or with anything else. No point in paying in other ways if the debt only keeps going up, never down.

Of course it's possible that McCarthy only claimed she was in debt to him by that much to stop tongues wagging that she may have been living there rent free in return for sexual services.

Love,

Caz
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Hi caz

thanks-I see what your saying here and basically agree. On the other hand he hadn't kicked her out yet for getting so far behind.


again just thinking out loud, I don't really think that was what was going on because there is no evidence for it-just wanted to get others take on the possibility.
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  #290  
Old 10-12-2018, 02:37 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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I'm pretty sure I read McCarthy saying that more than one of his tenants were in arrears. Darned if I can remember where, though.

Hi Sam,

I went looking for a quote on the above, and the Echo printed on Nov 10th;

"For these rooms rents are supposed to be paid daily, but of course they will sometimes get a good deal in arrear. This was the case with one of the tenants, who had occupied a ground-floor room on the right hand side of the court for about twelve months. Her name was understood to be Mary Jane Kelly - a young woman of 24, tall, slim, fair, of fresh complexion, and attractive appearance - and she was believed to be the daughter of a man occupying a responsible position in some ironworks in the neighbourhood of Carmarthen."

Further into that days edition I found this, don't remember seeing this particular snippet before:

"Did anyone know her? A rough-looking fellow, engaged in cutting his victuals on the rude table, queried on this, "Did anyone not know her?2 - a remark which hugely tickled his companions. Poor Mary Jane Kelly was a figure, it appears, in street brawls, sudden and quick in quarrel, and - for a woman - handy with her fists. The rough fellows laughed and grieved in turns over her, although the terrible cynicism beforehand mentioned always entered in his conversation. An elderly man who wore a coat and waistcoat, but no shirt beneath, averred in pessimistic tones it was better for Mary Jane Kelly to have been done to death. "Wot was her life?" he muttered, spreading out his thin and not too clean hands to the fire. "Starvation three days a week, and then, when she got money, drink for the other three days. I knowed her. I guv her the money for her doss three weeks ago cos she hadn't none. Yes, matey, and that at two in the mornin'," he said, turning to our reporter whose intent bearing may possibly have suggested incredulity. "Mary Jane was a good soul." This testimony was freely offered. "She would spend her money lavishly when she had any, and when she hadn't any, why -" The sentence was left unfinished".

I think that is interesting on a few levels....1, that it seems Mary had asked someone she knew for doss at 2am before...maybe her last doss payment?,.... 2, that she did not have a reputation for working more than just a few days a week, and 3, that she was not unfamiliar with fighting...the last point perhaps illustrated by the appearance of defensive wounds on Mary.
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