death penalty

[Robert]

But if the "state" fails to protect the lives of its citizens by failing to provide adequate deterrents, then the "state" has murdered its citizens just the same, no?

[Abby Normal]

to all who are against the death penalty-
Id be more concerned about scores of convicted murderers who are released and kill again.

[Abby Normal]

But if the "state" fails to protect the lives of its citizens by failing to provide adequate deterrents, then the "state" has murdered its citizens just the same, no?

yup. and to my point above-especially when they release convicted murderers who go on murder more innocent victims.

not enough emphasis on the victims IMHO.

[babybird67]

Robert

when the death penalty was operational, there were still murders, yes? So much for a deterrent.

Abby - convicted murderers should be imprisoned for life. This protects citizens but also allows the State to at least rectify those convictions which are unsafe by releasing the innocent. The State is unable to bring a dead man back to life.

[babybird67]

innocent victims

yup. and to my point above-especially when they release convicted murderers who go on murder more innocent victims.

not enough emphasis on the victims IMHO.

Abby, why do you not see an innocent person executed as a 'victim'? You appear to have no compassion or empathy for them or their families. They are just part of a 'the ends justify the means' equation for you are they?

[Robert]

Babybird, we jail people for theft, but there are still thefts. What shall we do? Slap on the wrist?

[Robert]

Babybird, just curious : what would you have done in World War Two? Would you have bombed German cities?

[GUT]

G'day Abby

to all who are against the death penalty-
Id be more concerned about scores of convicted murderers who are released and kill again.

I don't know the stats where you are, but how many released killers ever kll again, most spend 30 or 40 years in gaol at least. What is wrong wth never to be released?

[pinkmoon]

I don't know the stats where you are, but how many released killers ever kll again, most spend 30 or 40 years in gaol at least. What is wrong wth never to be released?

That's the problem gut when we first abolished the death penalty people who were convicted of murder did do 30 years now it can be about 10 years and murder seems to be down graded to manslaughter all the time.

[GUT]

G'day Pinkmoon

Downgrading murder to manslaughter is another issue, and as I posted earlier, QC's that I know tell me that after the death penalty was abolished here the conviction rate for murder went through the roof.

[Fleetwood Mac]

yes everybody has the right not to be murdered, and that includes murder by the state , therefore a system whereby even one innocent life is lost to murder by the state is unjustifiable.

Today I read on the news that another man wrongly convicted and on death row has been released.

Thank God he was not murdered before this point, although at any time he could have been.

It is bad enough that the state has stolen 30 odd years of his life, time which is irreplaceable, that he was prevented spending with his son, and now grandchildren.

If that state tells its citizens murder is wrong, the state must not engage in murder. Anything less is just unjust hypocrisy.

What a load of nonsense.

The state can murder you or I at will.

The US government turned up in Iraq and bombed the living daylights out of men, women and children. Killed many, displaced more, left children without Mothers and Fathers. Aided by the British Government and assorted Western sponsors.

So, let's dispel this notion that you or I have a right to a life that can't be taken away, and the notion of innocence or anything else. It's all blather.

No one has the right to a life, only the opportunity to build a harmonious community with like minded souls.

If someone was convicted of a crime, and subsequently found innocent, then the problem lies with the ability of jurors to get it right; not in the principle underpinning the punishment.

And, it's not the state. It's the people who make up a community. It's usually the state when our politicians make up a load of old bollocks about Iraqi WMDs that can hit you in the eye from a range of a billion hectres and at a speed of a billion hectres per milli-second. The people knew it was bollocks and there was an audible groan around the country: "not this shite again". Then it was the state. But, what we're talking of is the community and how it administers justice.

[Fleetwood Mac]

when the death penalty was operational, there were still murders, yes? So much for a deterrent.

Seemingly not.

According to research there were somewhere between 10-20 murders in a year, in the whole of London, in Jack The Ripper's day.

These days we have 10-20 murders in a village in a few weeks, and at least10 x the number of serial killers on the loose at any one time.

[caz]

if a potential juror does not believe in the death penalty in a capital murder case they can be ruled out by the prosecutor during the juror screening process. usually a juror will admit they are against it.

Yes, but then there could be no hope of a fair trial, because everyone with better things to do would get off jury service by saying they were against the death penalty (whether they felt strongly about it or not) and you'd only be left with the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Did you know that in every poll undertaken in England the majority are for the death penalty? Not by much, granted, say 55/45.

But that confirms my observation that murderers could get off entirely if those against make up 45% of potential jurors, and this percentage could rise further as old attitudes gradually catch up with changes in the law (as with spousal abuse, racial hatred, homophobia and so on) and the younger generation grows up with those laws in place.

While some of the 45% would say so up front and not serve in a case where capital punishment was a real possibility, others would feel strongly enough to keep quiet but then refuse to convict.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Kick em all out of jail and prison, could be errors.

How have you managed to miss the whole point of the discussion?

We were talking about fatal errors. Rather hard for an innocent person to appeal from beyond the grave.

Love,

Caz
X