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8 September 1889

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  • 8 September 1889

    Hi,

    Two days before the discovery of the Pinchin Street torso on Sunday 8 September 1889 a witness, John Arnold, arrived at the London office of the New York Herald.

    He said he had information on a new Jack the Ripper murder which had just been discovered in Backchurch lane.

    According to Arnold, a mutilated body had been discovered by a constable at around 11.20 pm.

    Arnold said he had heard of the discovery via a Police Inspector, whom he had bumped into on Whitechapel High Street.

    Two reporters took down his story and hurried down to the street with Arnold to call a hansom cab.

    At this point, Arnold slightly modified his story, saying his informant was not a police inspector, but "an ex-member of the police force."

    When the Herald men arrived at the scene they found no trace of murder.

    They questioned two police officers who were patrolling the area, but neither had heard of any disturbances. The reporters made a search of the area, but nothing was to be found.

    But when news of the Pinchin Street torso broke two days later, the statements of Arnold were remembered.

    Pinchin street is an extension of Backchurch lane, and in fact the mutilated torso was discovered very near to where the two 'intersect'. The fact that this man 'predicted' a mutilation-murder in that location just two days earlier seemed like more than mere coincidence.

    They searched for Arnold, who had given a false name (Cleary) and found him. He admitted that on Saturday, the evening of 7 September, he had been drinking at the King Lud public house. Soon after he left the pub he was approached near Fleet Street by a man dressed as a soldier. This man told him,

    "Hurry up with your papers, another horrible murder ... in Backchurch Lane."

    Arnold said he immediately ran up to the offices of the New York Herald to report the information, but that he did not wish to follow the reporters to the scene of the crime because it was past 1am and his lodgings would soon close for the night.

    Arnold described the man he had met:

    ... a man dressed as a soldier, in black uniform, black cord shoulder strap, lightish buttons, cheese cutter cap, brass ornament in front of cap like a horn. Cannot say whether there was a band round or not, age about 35 to 36. Height 5ft. 6 or 7. compl. fair. Fair moustache, good looking, carrying a brown paper parcel about 6 or 8 inches long... I cannot say if he belonged to the regulars or volunteers... If I talked to the soldier for ten minutes or so, I might recognise his voice, but I am not certain that I could identify him from a number of persons.

    Swanson remarked that this description most closely resembled that of a "Commissionaire".

    Source: http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/john-arnold.html
    Regards, Pierre
    Last edited by Pierre; 03-25-2016, 07:17 AM.

  • #2
    Dear Pierre,

    This appears to be a summary of the link you gave.
    No Question are asked , nor comments made.
    I am therefore a little bemused as to the reasoning behind the thread.
    May one ask what is your aim with this particular thread?

    Respectfully

    Steve

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
      Dear Pierre,

      This appears to be a summary of the link you gave.
      No Question are asked , nor comments made.
      I am therefore a little bemused as to the reasoning behind the thread.
      May one ask what is your aim with this particular thread?

      Respectfully

      Steve
      Hi Steve,

      Yes, it is a shorter summary. And I can understand your bemusement.

      But I honestly didnīt come to think of any questions to pose about it. I just found it interesting, and perhaps mostly since it seems to have happened a year after the murder of Annie Chapman.

      So here is a question: Could it have anything to do with the murder of Chapman?

      Kind regards, Pierre

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Pierre View Post
        Hi Steve,

        Yes, it is a shorter summary. And I can understand your bemusement.

        But I honestly didnīt come to think of any questions to pose about it. I just found it interesting, and perhaps mostly since it seems to have happened a year after the murder of Annie Chapman.

        So here is a question: Could it have anything to do with the murder of Chapman?

        Kind regards, Pierre
        The word coincidence comes to mind.
        Christopher T. George
        Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conference
        just held in Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018.
        For information about RipperCon, go to http://rippercon.com/
        RipperCon 2018 talks can now be heard at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/

        Comment


        • #5
          I think John Arnold was one shifty customer and fits the description of "Mr. Blotchy" seen with MJK.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
            The word coincidence comes to mind.
            Probably. But wasnīt there some sighting of someone looking like a "soldier" in the company of Martha Tabram before she was murdered? Is there any good source for this?

            Regards, Pierre

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Pierre View Post
              Hi Steve,

              Yes, it is a shorter summary. And I can understand your bemusement.

              But I honestly didnīt come to think of any questions to pose about it. I just found it interesting, and perhaps mostly since it seems to have happened a year after the murder of Annie Chapman.

              So here is a question: Could it have anything to do with the murder of Chapman?

              Kind regards, Pierre
              no. and the man changed his story so much its useless. as a matter of fact, as is the case with so many of the "witnesses"(or attention seekers) its worse than useless as it just obfuscates everything.

              But I'm sure that since the man originally mentioned a police man, you will find it highly significant.
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                no. and the man changed his story so much its useless. as a matter of fact, as is the case with so many of the "witnesses"(or attention seekers) its worse than useless as it just obfuscates everything.
                Not in this case. There is a reliable source, an original statement written by Arnold to the police where the descriptions of the person he talked to are included.

                Regards, Pierre

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Pierre View Post
                  Probably. But wasnīt there some sighting of someone looking like a "soldier" in the company of Martha Tabram before she was murdered? Is there any good source for this?

                  Regards, Pierre
                  Hello Pierre,

                  No.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pierre View Post
                    Not in this case. There is a reliable source, an original statement written by Arnold to the police where the descriptions of the person he talked to are included.

                    Regards, Pierre
                    Hello Pierre,

                    The torso crimes-there's no proof of murder-are not connected to the 1888 Whitechapel murders.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Pierre View Post
                      Not in this case. There is a reliable source, an original statement written by Arnold to the police where the descriptions of the person he talked to are included.

                      Regards, Pierre
                      Arnold is not a reliable source. sorry.
                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pierre View Post
                        Probably. But wasnīt there some sighting of someone looking like a "soldier" in the company of Martha Tabram before she was murdered? Is there any good source for this?

                        Regards, Pierre
                        But London was filled with thousands of soldiers.
                        Christopher T. George
                        Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conference
                        just held in Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018.
                        For information about RipperCon, go to http://rippercon.com/
                        RipperCon 2018 talks can now be heard at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                          Arnold is not a reliable source. sorry.
                          No, since Arnold is not a source himself. He is dead.

                          But the police source giving his statements is reliable. And that does not mean that the contents of the source have a high validity. There might be a tendency.

                          You have to make a distinction between living persons as sources and historical sources in which dead people speak.

                          Regards, Pierre
                          Last edited by Pierre; 03-25-2016, 11:22 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
                            But London was filled with thousands of soldiers.
                            Yes, certainly. But thousands of soldiers did not walk around in London telling people about future murders or crime scenes.

                            Regards, Pierre

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              http://casebook.org/official_documen...t_chapman.html
                              Originally posted by Pierre View Post
                              Probably. But wasnīt there some sighting of someone looking like a "soldier" in the company of Martha Tabram before she was murdered? Is there any good source for this?

                              Regards, Pierre
                              And also, wasnīt there some statements about Annie Chapman having been seen with a man looking like a "soldier"?

                              Yes. According to The Daily Telegraph (we donīt have the original inquest papers for Chapman), Timothy Donovan stated:

                              "She (Chapman) used to come and stay at the lodging-house on Saturdays with a man - a pensioner - of soldierly appearance, whose name I do not know" (my underscore).
                              Last edited by Pierre; 03-25-2016, 11:47 AM.

                              Comment

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