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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #3131  
Old 04-15-2018, 06:15 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
They weren't all facts, Abby, some were opinions - "skilfully cut and disarticulated". Says who? Define "skill".
Hi Gareth,

Here is some actual wording from Dr. Hebbert.

Rainham Torso-

"The heads of the humeri had been cleanly disarticulated. "

"The disarticulations were neatly and cleanly done, in each case the joint being exactly opened"

Whitehall Torso-

"The manner in which the limb had been separated was exactly the same as in the first case, and similar arguments as to the occupation of the operator will apply in this case."

"The glenoid fossae are bare, and the limbs cleanly disarticulated"

Elizabeth Jackson-

"Both arms had been taken off opposite the shoulder-joints by three or four long, sweeping cuts, the joints neatly disarticulated."

"The thighs had been taken off opposite the hip joints by long, sweeping incisions through the skin, muscles and tissues down to the joint, the heads of the bones neatly disarticulated."

Pinchin Torso-

"The thighs had been separated at the hip joints, the skin cut through by two or three sweeping, circular incisions, beginning apparently just below the hip bone, and carried downward and inward around the buttock. The capsules of the hip joint were opened, and the heads of the bones neatly disarticulated."


Not only is the procedure very similar in all cases, it was neatly and cleanly performed. This wasn't hack and slash to remove an arm and a leg. This was someone familiar with how to remove limbs by disarticulation. The easy route was to saw the limbs off. The more time consuming way, too. Why take the time to open up the joints, and neatly disarticulate the limbs?

Last edited by jerryd : 04-15-2018 at 06:30 PM.
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  #3132  
Old 04-15-2018, 06:54 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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In contrast to my last post.

1836 James Greenacre dismemberment of Hannah Brown.

"It proved to be the body of a female, apparently about fifty years of age. The head had been severed from the trunk in an awkward manner, the bone of the neck having been partly sawn through and partly broken off; and the legs had been removed in a similar irregular way."

1879 Kate Webster dismemberment of Julia Thomas.

"I determined to do away with the body as best I could. I chopped the head from the body with the assistance of a razor which I used to cut through the flesh afterwards. I also used the meat saw and the carving knife to cut the body up with. I prepared the copper with water to boil the body to prevent identity; and as soon as I had succeeded in cutting it up I placed it in the copper and boiled it. I opened the stomach with the carving knife, and burned up as much of the parts as I could."

1902 Salmanca Lambeth Torso

"On more careful examination , other points were noted about the body. It had been dissected in a very rough and ready fashion, in the manner that would be expected of an ignorant person, with no idea of anatomy."
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  #3133  
Old 04-15-2018, 07:13 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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In post #3131 I said The more time consuming way, too.. Meant to say less time consuming
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  #3134  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:50 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Not only is the procedure very similar in all cases, it was neatly and cleanly performed. This wasn't hack and slash to remove an arm and a leg. This was someone familiar with how to remove limbs by disarticulation. The easy route was to saw the limbs off. The more time consuming way, too. Why take the time to open up the joints, and neatly disarticulate the limbs?
Hi Jerry
More specifically, Hebbert thought the similarity in cutting the skin around the joints with a knife, exposing the joint and then opening it to remove the limb linked the four cases 87 to 89 and showed the same skill demonstrated by someone accustomed to cutting up animals; like a butcher, hunter or horse knackerer.
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  #3135  
Old 04-15-2018, 11:13 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Thanks Jerry and Debs

I'd only observe that there were plenty of people who had some experience of jointing meat in London at the time, and not necessarily in a professional capacity.
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  #3136  
Old 04-15-2018, 11:17 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is online now
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Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
Hi Jerry
More specifically, Hebbert thought the similarity in cutting the skin around the joints with a knife, exposing the joint and then opening it to remove the limb linked the four cases 87 to 89 and showed the same skill demonstrated by someone accustomed to cutting up animals; like a butcher, hunter or horse knackerer.
Hi Debs
Another comment from Dr Biggs relative to this issue on who could have dismembered these torsos and the doctors of the days opinions

"I think it is worth noting that comments relating to ‘anatomical knowledge’ or ‘surgical skill’ should be taken with a pinch of salt in these sorts of cases. I have seen surgeons and pathologists make a right mess of human anatomy, and I have seen ‘amateurs making a pretty good job of chopping up a body at their first attempt. Generalizations cannot be used to comment on specific cases, and I find their assumption that a surgeon or anatomist could not have done such a good job because they are not cutting as regularly as a hunter or butcher quite bizarre."

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Last edited by Trevor Marriott : 04-15-2018 at 11:29 PM.
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  #3137  
Old 04-16-2018, 04:02 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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There's nothing remotely ridiculous in what I've suggested. I see no reason to include the Pinchin Street case in the other torso series, and certainly no reason to pin any of them on the Ripper. The Pinchin Street case might easily have been a one-off, just as many of the Whitechapel Murders (Coles, Mylett, McKenzie, Tabram, Smith, Stride...) could have been one-offs
But when the "one-offs" start mounting up, there's an increasing likelihood that they are not one-offs.

I no longer subscribe to this concept that "If the killer did this to Mary Kelly, why didn't he do that to the Torsos?" etc. Those are valid questions but they limit the discussion to a specific interpretation of the killer's profile. We know that serial killers can behave in unpredictable patterns and we have no idea what was going through his mind at the time or what the motivation was for the Ripper & Torso series. There are just too many unknown variables to factor in to make definitive statements on what a hypothetical serial killer should or shouldn't have done.
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  #3138  
Old 04-16-2018, 04:14 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
But when the "one-offs" start mounting up, there's an increasing likelihood that they are not one-offs.

I no longer subscribe to this concept that "If the killer did this to Mary Kelly, why didn't he do that to the Torsos?" etc. Those are valid questions but they limit the discussion to a specific interpretation of the killer's profile. We know that serial killers can behave in unpredictable patterns and we have no idea what was going through his mind at the time or what the motivation was for the Ripper & Torso series. There are just too many unknown variables to factor in to make definitive statements on what a hypothetical serial killer should or shouldn't have done.
Bingo harry.
I’ve been saying it for years.

Why didn’t they do this, why didn’t they do that?

Who knows. They do weird things but it makes perfect sense to them.
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  #3139  
Old 04-16-2018, 04:15 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
There's nothing remotely ridiculous in what I've suggested. I see no reason to include the Pinchin Street case in the other torso series, and certainly no reason to pin any of them on the Ripper. The Pinchin Street case might easily have been a one-off, just as many of the Whitechapel Murders (Coles, Mylett, McKenzie, Tabram, Smith, Stride...) could have been one-offs, and many of them almost certainly were. A lot of blood was shed that year, and it sure as hell wasn't all down to the same man; how much more likely is it that there was more than one man involved in the longer time-span of the torso cases?
You have already had the answer to that: It is beyond reasonable doubt that the series were connected, as per the triumvirate Chapman - Kelly - Jackson.

It is extremely likely that the other 1887-1889 torsos belong too.

It is extremely likely that Nichols, Eddowes and Kelly belong too.

It is quite likely that Stride belongs too.

It is almost certain that the 1873 torso belongs too.

It is quite likely that the 1874 torso and the Tottenham torso belong too.
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  #3140  
Old 04-16-2018, 04:17 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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I'm a darned sight more objective than you will ever be.
That is devastating news. It makes me a charlatan, a fraud and a liar.

Then again, you are of course not correct. You are not objective at all. If you were, you would for example say "Okay, so the papers tell us that the flaps from Jackons abdomen probably involved all of the lower abdomen.

Thats objectivity. That´s how it looks. It does not look like "Sod it, how do I get past this? Oh, I know - the journalists all got it wrong!"

Last edited by Fisherman : 04-16-2018 at 04:23 AM.
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