The Possible Murder of Georgina Byrne

[curious]

Why assume that, Herlock? Women wore boots, too, and the parcel had a tradesman's address in Canterbury, which ties in with where she came from. She might have been bringing a pair of ladies' boots to her sister as a gift, or (if they *were* men's boots), perhaps she had wrapped up a pair of her late husband's to give to her brother-in-law. Although the latter may be unlikely, as the deceased man was a soldier.

Whether daytime or night, Mrs. Bryne should have an escort. Tall Silk Hat man most likely is some sort of acquaintance, and probably was known to her. Was the second man an accomplice to TSM (if he is a con-man after the widow's money) or an innocent passer-by?

Many of the women's shoes at the times were above the ankle and either buttoned or laced. Some of the expensive ones were beautifully made and delicate -- not the UGGs or heavy clunkers of today.

If the extra pair of boots was intended as a gift, why would she have the extra pair with her in the late evening walking along with a man wearing a top hat?

I don't think anything nefarious was going on. No robbery (the money was left there).

She was of an age that Daddy didn't necessarily need to know everything she did. She was out of town and in the city, kicking up her heels a little.

Even if Daddy knew what she was doing or just suspected, it's not likely he would have told everything he knew to the authorities and certainly not to a nosy reporter.

The simple explanation seems to be the couple had been dancing, hence carrying her dancing shoes. I hauled my dancing shoes around for years in their original box and a tote bag.

She and her escort were walking back to her hotel or home or where ever she was staying the night. Suddenly, she keeled over.

A passerby offered to help. The top hatted man said he was her husband to protect her reputation. However, when it was obvious she was dead and someone was in place to help her, TH left to protect his own reputation and not have his name bandied about 125 years later. So, he left a bit of an air of mystery. Better the mystery than for folks to know what was really going on. No crime, just a young woman with a bad heart or an anuerysm dying after some exertion.

Th couldn't change the fact that she was dead. Answering too many questions might actually cause harm to her memory and his life so he left.

curious

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why assume that, Herlock? Women wore boots, too, and the parcel had a tradesman's address in Canterbury, which ties in with where she came from. She might have been bringing a pair of ladies' boots to her sister as a gift, or (if they *were* men's boots), perhaps she had wrapped up a pair of her late husband's to give to her brother-in-law. Although the latter may be unlikely, as the deceased man was a soldier.

The lady's dress seems very much in keeping with mourning rules of the Victorian era, but she has probably not become a widow very recently, given the addition of mauve to her dress, and that she is out in public.

We have two ages for Mrs. Byrne, per the press accounts, but I think 34 is more likely than 27. People in their thirties could have heart attacks, I suppose, particularly if they had a "weak" heart.

Whether daytime or night, Mrs. Bryne should have an escort. Tall Silk Hat man most likely is some sort of acquaintance, and probably was known to her. Was the second man an accomplice to TSM (if he is a con-man after the widow's money) or an innocent passer-by?

Hi Pat

To be honest I don't really know why I assumed they were men's boots? Perhaps it's because I worked in industry and had to wear boots that I tend to associate 'boots' with heavy, work footwear. Maybe Curious is right that they had been dancing? It certainly seems likely the Mrs Byrne and Top Hat Man were acquainted in some way. In the absence of other information it's also likely that the other man just stopped to help. Why was he holding her bag though?

[curious]

it's also likely that the other man just stopped to help. Why was he holding her bag though?

I can see two possibilities:
Prob. TH was carrying the package as a matter of courtesy. When Mrs. Byrne slumped, he would likely have attempted to catch her. However, from the way the article reads, perhaps both men were supporting her to keep her from falling.

Imagine walking along with someone who is suddenly struck with a life-ending emergency. What would you do?

But if TH was carrying the package at the time of her medical emergency,
1) he dropped the package of shoes, which the passerby just absently picked up to hold or
2) the other man was close enough that he got handed the package as TH was attempting to catch Mrs. Byrne
3. The three had been walking together and the other man had been carrying the package of shoes all the time. She also had a handbag and umbrella -- with a sovereign in it no less! Plenty of stuff for everyone to be carrying something.

It is certainly an interesting tidbit that could have become scandalous if they had been on their way back to the man's place where she was spending the night. Her reputation would have been irretrievably sullied.

curious

[David Orsam]

If the boots had been dancing shoes wouldn't the police have immediately recognised them as such, made enquiries at local dancing venues and got to the bottom of the matter?

[David Orsam]

We have two ages for Mrs. Byrne, per the press accounts, but I think 34 is more likely than 27.

Her death certificate confirms her age as 34.

[Abby Normal]

I'm disappointed with everyone here for not being able to figure this out.
It's really quite simple and easy to see.

The woman and top hat man murdered her husband for his inheritance and insurance. SHe was on her way back from the lawyers and insurance company after lengthy meetings all day which is why she had gold and her dead husbands shoes. She was meeting with top hat man right after the meetings and he was planning on double crossing her to steal the gold and chloroformed her with a tainted umbrella but was interrupted by the second man who foiled the plot. The coin in the umbrella fell inside it during the struggle.

[Herlock Sholmes]

A statement; a scenario and a question.

A statement - Regarding the boots. As the package had the tradesman's name on it (Kennedy) doesn't it seem likelier that she had, sometime earlier, collected these boots from being repaired?

A scenario - Is it possible that TH man and MS Byrne had recently ended an association and on that night TH man was looking for the return of some property ( the gold watch and some cash which maybe she owed him)? Maybe the stress of the situation brought on the collapse. The reason that I've suggested this scenario is the line in the Guardian article, provided by David, that said 'one of them apparently searching her dress.' Was he trying to retrieve certain items? Possibly other items that she didn't have with her as she had no intention of returning them.

A question - Why was Mrs Byrne's son not living with her but at Great Yarmouth with her parents? Was the baby TH man's? Did her parents disapprove of her 'lifestyle' choices and insist on removing the child? ( ok, so that's 3 questions)

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm disappointed with everyone here for not being able to figure this out.
It's really quite simple and easy to see.

The woman and top hat man murdered her husband for his inheritance and insurance. SHe was on her way back from the lawyers and insurance company after lengthy meetings all day which is why she had gold and her dead husbands shoes. She was meeting with top hat man right after the meetings and he was planning on double crossing her to steal the gold and chloroformed her with a tainted umbrella but was interrupted by the second man who foiled the plot. The coin in the umbrella fell inside it during the struggle.

How did we miss that one

[curious]

How did we miss that one

exactly! :-)

David, were there any follow up documents to indicate a crime?

If not, don't you suspect the authorities made a few discrete inquiries, satisfied themselves there was no crime and left it alone? She was a young widow from what was apparently a respectable family. She was dead, why destroy her reputation?

We have a saying here, "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas." She had left the busybodies of her hometown and come into the big city. Maybe at that time, what happened in London stayed in London.

As someone who enjoys dancing, I can tell you that I have worn all kinds of shoes and no, they would not necessarily have been marketed and sold as dancing shoes for me to have changed them before walking to my car. Anyway, are you positive the young officer would have been sophisticated enough to have recognized the differences in the types of women's shoes? Remember the scene from "Legally Blonde"?

The men having their hands in her clothes could have been feeling for a heartbeat or pulse, perhaps.

We'll never know what Mrs. Bryne was doing in London and out late at night, but unless there was a follow up crime report, I have my doubts there was a crime and therefore no reason for the world to know exactly what was going on.

curious

[David Orsam]

If not, don't you suspect the authorities made a few discrete inquiries, satisfied themselves there was no crime and left it alone?

No, because her movements that night were investigated at the inquest. This is from the Times report of her father's evidence:

"He did not know her object in being in London, but could only surmise that she intended to pay a visit to her sister. She left Canterbury on Saturday afternoon, but he knew nothing of her subsequent movements. By the Coroner - She had several friends in London, but he was not aware that she saw any on Saturday."

According to the same report, Duffin, in his evidence, said that the parcel contained "a pair of new boots". That suggests to me that they were not being used for dancing.

It was also stated, incidentally, that "The woman was taken to St Thomas's Hospital, but died on the way". So it wasn't impossible she could have been saved, making Top Hat man's behaviour all the more reprehensible.

[David Orsam]

The woman and top hat man murdered her husband for his inheritance and insurance. SHe was on her way back from the lawyers and insurance company after lengthy meetings all day which is why she had gold and her dead husbands shoes. She was meeting with top hat man right after the meetings and he was planning on double crossing her to steal the gold and chloroformed her with a tainted umbrella but was interrupted by the second man who foiled the plot. The coin in the umbrella fell inside it during the struggle.

At last, a sensible theory.

[curious]

No, because her movements that night were investigated at the inquest. This is from the Times report of her father's evidence:

"He did not know her object in being in London, but could only surmise that she intended to pay a visit to her sister. She left Canterbury on Saturday afternoon, but he knew nothing of her subsequent movements. By the Coroner - She had several friends in London, but he was not aware that she saw any on Saturday."

According to the same report, Duffin, in his evidence, said that the parcel contained "a pair of new boots". That suggests to me that they were not being used for dancing.

It was also stated, incidentally, that "The woman was taken to St Thomas's Hospital, but died on the way". So it wasn't impossible she could have been saved, making Top Hat man's behaviour all the more reprehensible.

So, what do you think was going on?

curious

[David Orsam]

I wish I knew.

[curious]

I wish I knew.

Well, it appears she left work at 2 p.m. and died about 9 hours later.

She was working so was probably not prostituting herself. She could afford nice clothes and had gold on her. The gold watch and chain were on her person, along with a bracelet, so she was wearing jewelry, meaning she was not poor and not strictly in mourning. As someone already said because of the addition of mauve to her black.

Because she did not have an overnight case with her when she died, she was not on her way to her sister's straight from Canterbury. Besides, Blackfriars is quite a distance from Chelsea where the maiden sister lived. If she came into London for an overnight, she originally had more with her than was on her body. So, she had left her belongings somewhere earlier.

From Canterbury to either Blackfriars or Chelsea by train -- by today's schedule -- is less than two hours.

Because she had a parcel with "new shoes" and they were from a shop in Canterbury, she could have gone shopping after work. However, why did she still have the shoes with her and not the rest of her belongings?

If she were on her way to her sister's, why was she walking in Blackfriars? Why not in a cab at that hour of the night or on her way to the train station? Maybe they were?

David, I suggest that the top-hatted gentlemen's vanishing act was not necessarily reprehensible. It is possible that staying to make an official statement might have destroyed her reputation. Once someone was on the scene to take care of her, his vanishing might have been the kindest thing he could have done.

curious

[David Orsam]

David, I suggest that the top-hatted gentlemen's vanishing act was not necessarily reprehensible. It is possible that staying to make an official statement might have destroyed her reputation. Once someone was on the scene to take care of her, his vanishing might have been the kindest thing he could have done.

It's not the vanishing act I'm complaining about. It's the fact that he said he was going to go for a doctor. Then did not do so. This might have meant a long delay while Duffin waited for him to return before it was decided to take Mrs Byrne to a hospital. In short, his lie might have meant there was no chance of saving her life when there might have otherwise have been a chance.