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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #21  
Old 08-02-2017, 01:15 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Very little to add to what has already been posted.

However I will just sumerise what other have said.

1. He was in reality a local delivery man; not a long distance trucker, therefore he probably spent most nights in his home, not on the road. There appears to be no real correlation between the roles.

2. The bodies were not dropped on his carman route as far as is known, and probably not while he was actually working. Again there appears to be few similarities in the relative positions - Trucker and Carman.

3. Delivery of meat, even if such was a regular item does not make one a butcher or give one any knowledge of butchery. No correlation of occupations is displayed at all here.

4. The cat meat business as I understand it did not actually involve a great deal of butchery. The carcasses are processed by the slaughter house, the cat meat business merely processes what is delivered. Here there may be a limited degree of correlation, but it is far from proven.

Steve
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  #22  
Old 08-02-2017, 01:17 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Since my first three years out of school was as a butchers apprentice, and for the last twenty years I have driven an 18 wheeler, I guess my defense is totally shot....
no wonder you keep pressing as your favorite suspect a well dressed well to do individual wicky! trying to shift the blame I see....

just kidding.
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  #23  
Old 08-02-2017, 01:18 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Okay, let´s throw a little something into the Lechmere bonfire.

Here´s a question for you all: are there any occupations that typically involve a raised level of criminal activity/serial murder?

The question may seem an odd one, but it really isn´t.

Earlier today, I posted a link to a documentary from last year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEwLXwPZuh4

It is a docu about how it has been revealed that long-haul truckers in the US are very common guests on death row. It is stated in the docu that:

-There are 25 men, all former truckers, who are jailed for serial murder in the US.

-There are around 500 unsolved murder cases where victims have been found dumped along the freeways of the US.

-In these cases, 200 of the suspects are truck drivers.

- The bulk of the victims are prostitutes, working the truck stops.

I find this immensely interesting. It firmly establishes the truckers role as one that offers itself up to abductions, rape and murder. The figures blew me away.

Oddly, this is not the one and only occupational category that has been connected to violent crime over the years. At the University of Windsor, criminology professor Amy Fitzgerald states that statistics show a clear link between slaughterhouses, butchery and brutal crime. It is, she says, an empirical fact. Whenever abbatoirs are introduced into a community, the levels of violent crime follows suit. It is speculated that a desensitation is what causes this.

In this case, the link:

https://eatingplantsdotorg.wordpress...violent-crime/

is useful.

But where is the applicability for the Lechmere case? Well, Lechmere was the equivalent of todays truckers, he too was in the goods transport business. He was exposed to prostitution along his routes. And he was involved with butchery, owing to his work, and possibly also to the Lechmere family tradition of processing horse meat.

Of course, todays trucking is different from the carmanship of the East End in 1888. And of course, our society differs from theirs.

But it seems that Lechmere was involved in the two occupations that are the only ones, as far as I can tell, that have been connected roughly to the types of crimes the Ripper made himself guilty of.

Now, if I may be so bold, please do not offer the answer "So now every trucker is a serial killer?" "And every butcher hits the town, meatcleaver in hand, after working hours?"

These facts are worthy of a much better and more profound discussion.

Anybody?
Hi Fish
Very interesting. I need to ruminate on it a little.
Thanks for posting.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #24  
Old 08-02-2017, 01:20 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
The cat meat business as I understand it did not actually involve a great deal of butchery.
They'd have had a job getting a dead horse into the poky front room of 29 Hanbury Street for Harriet Hardiman to chop it up.
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  #25  
Old 08-02-2017, 01:23 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Gareth makes the point that a meat delivery man is no more tied to butchery than a postman is to writing. That is an interesting way to skew the perspectives: a postman is well aquainted with the letters.
I'm not skewing anything, and I said nothing about "being acquainted with" letters; the operative word I used was "involved in". But the postman doesn't get to write them as part of his job, does he? He just picks up and delivers what other people have prepared. His job doesn't "involve him" in letter production at all.

Ditto the relationship between delivering meat and butchery.
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  #26  
Old 08-02-2017, 01:25 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post

Gareth makes the point that a meat delivery man is no more tied to butchery than a postman is to writing. That is an interesting way to skew the perspectives: a postman is well aquainted with the letters.

The Broad Street depot was handling meat to a very large extent according to the historian from the docu, and this will mean that Lechmere handled animal body parts.
Christer

Are you seriously saying that handling of meat -animal body parts as you put it gives a person a knowledge of butchery?
If so the same would apply to any cook in a large house, restaurant or club and today would apply to anyone who stocks up their freezer.

He is transporting precut pieces of meat to homes, restaurants or even local butchers, he is not involved in preparing it himself is he?

I really don't thing this works at all.


Steve
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  #27  
Old 08-02-2017, 01:26 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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The typical knee jerk reaction against anything fish/lech. what a shame.

Here fish posts legit reports/docus about something that finds a possible correlation between ones occupation and being a serial killer.

I would think you all would want to digest it a little more, remove your personal animus againt the lech theory and give it a little more thought and consideration.

Its interesting and worthy stuff no matter how you feel about Lech as a suspect, IMHO any way.
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"Is all that we see or seem
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #28  
Old 08-02-2017, 01:34 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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[quote=Fisherman;423941]
Quote:
...and of course the answers are mostly along the expected lines. One can only hope for so much!

One of the points made in the docu referred to is that an advantage for the truckers is that they can dump victims in various places, making them hard to detect. Since I accept that the Ripper and the Torso killer, something there is ample evidence for, it seems that the Torso murders took advantage from the same thing.
And the C-5 were easy to detect.

Quote:
The initial dumping was seemingly made where the river Wandle meets that Thames, but since that knowledge was spread, the killer chose new and varying places.
The dismemberment cases were done by more than one person.

Quote:
Gareth makes the point that a meat delivery man is no more tied to butchery than a postman is to writing. That is an interesting way to skew the perspectives: a postman is well aquainted with the letters.

The Broad Street depot was handling meat to a very large extent according to the historian from the docu, and this will mean that Lechmere handled animal body parts.
Did he hunt animals?

Quote:
All in all, just like I said, Lechmere would have
The Wouldhaves.
Quote:
had ties to the only two occupations that are proven to be connected to violent crime and murder.
Those occupations are not "connected" to murder. It is spurious. A percentage of all murderers are truckers. You must perform regression to get the "connections".

Quote:
That applies regardless of the desperation evinced about it.

It is probably just another coincidence, eh?
You are talking about a person who lived and worked in Whitechapel in 1888.

Pierre
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  #29  
Old 08-02-2017, 01:38 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
The typical knee jerk reaction against anything fish/lech. what a shame.

Here fish posts legit reports/docus about something that finds a possible correlation between ones occupation and being a serial killer.

I would think you all would want to digest it a little more, remove your personal animus againt the lech theory and give it a little more thought and consideration.

Its interesting and worthy stuff no matter how you feel about Lech as a suspect, IMHO any way.
Abby

I do not think many are disagreeing with the basic idea that some jobs may be shall we say more suited to a serial killer. I think the issue people are having is there seems little if any correlation between the occupations mentioned by Fish and that of Lechmere.

Carmen are certainly not the equivalent of present day truckers. In the mid 1800's the canal man/barge man would be, by 1888 canal use has fallen and rail use has increased so one could have said railway man either one of the engine crew or the guard, as well as canal men played the same role and had the same opportunities.

To be fair butchers have often been mentioned as possible suspects, levy in particular.
So the actual premise seems very reasonable, but needs considerably more data than a single documentary to establish such as a fact.
For a moment let's just accept that such is true, it just seems very hard to fit that to Lechmere and his occupation


Steve

Last edited by Elamarna : 08-02-2017 at 01:44 PM.
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  #30  
Old 08-02-2017, 01:38 PM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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But even if Lechmere did handle pre-packaged meat, how does that convert into experience of butchery?
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