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  #221  
Old 05-18-2018, 11:33 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Very nice songs, David.
Thank you very much Robert.
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  #222  
Old 05-18-2018, 11:49 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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As I still don't know Mr Hawley's opinion regarding the proposed deployment of 12 constables at two London railway stations and its connection with Tumblety, and, as he is apparently planning a third book about Tumblety, I feel it necessary to go right back to the beginning, in order to try and convince him that the idea was initially raised long before the Ripper murders and the arrest of Tumblety, starting with the full text of the letter from Richard Prowse, Secretary of the Board of Customs, to the Home Office dated 22 March 1888. This is that letter (with some minor transcript corrections against the extract previously posted):

Sir,

I am desired to acquaint you, for the information of Secretary of State for the Home Department, that the Board of Customs have under their consideration an application from the London and North Western Railway Company requesting that the Baggage of Passengers arriving at Liverpool from America and proceeding over that company's line to London may, if registered for London, be sent thither from Liverpool, in locked vans and undergo the requisite customs examination at the Euston Square Terminus in London; and that there is reason to believe that an application to the same effect will be received from the Midland Railway Company with respect to the Baggage of Passengers from America who may come to London by that company's line to St Pancras Terminus.

So far as this Department is concerned, the Board think it may be possible to meet the wishes of these companies, under arrangements similar to those by which the examination of registered Baggage from the continent, via Folkestone and Dover, is now, and has for many years been, allowed to be examined at the Charing Cross and Victoria Termini, in place of at the Ports of arrival, but before giving a definite reply to that effect the Board think it right to consult the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the subject, in view of the frequent correspondence (of which the letters from this Department of the 13th ultimo No.2732/1888 and the 17th instant No. 8294/1888, are recent instances) between the Home Office and the Customs, as to the possibility of the introduction into the United Kingdom by means of Passengers’ Baggage, and especially of the Baggage of Passengers from America, of articles of a dangerous or explosive character.

I am to add that the measure of the degree of risk on these accounts, as between Baggage from the near Continental Ports under present arrangements, and that from American Ports under proposed arrangements, would appear to turn:

(1) On the greater length of the Railway journey from Liverpool to London as compared with the journey from Folkestone or Dover to London.

(2) On the probability that Passengers from America would bring a larger number of packages, per Passenger, than those coming from the near Continental Ports.

I am,

Sir,

Your obedient servant,

[Signed R.T. Prowse]
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  #223  
Old 05-18-2018, 11:57 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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The letter from the Board of Customs of 22 March was forwarded by the Home Office to Assistant Commissioner James Monro at Scotland Yard who wrote to the Under Secretary of State at the Home Office on 2 April 1888 as follows (the square brackets are in the original):

Sir,

With reference to your Correspondence No. A48584 herewith returned, - I have the honour to acquaint you in reply, that so far as Police action in connection with the importation of Explosives is concerned, I hardly think the system would be worth the expense to which it would lead. If it was considered necessary that Police should be present [as in the case of the Continental Trains] - at the examination of baggage, this could not be effected without employing a considerable number of Constables owing to the large passenger traffic at different railway termini.

I do not think that the results likely to follow from the adoption of the system would justify me in recommending such expense to be incurred.

I have the honour to be,

Sir,

Your obedient servant,

[Signed: J. Monro]
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  #224  
Old 05-18-2018, 12:04 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Following Monro's rejection of the idea, on 20 April 1888 Edward Leigh Pemberton at the Home Office wrote to the Secretary of the Board of Customs as follows:

Sir,

I am directed by the Secretary of State to inform you that he has had under his careful consideration your letter of the 22nd ultimo, No. 8484, as to the application for the examination at London of the baggage of passengers arriving at Liverpool from America and proceeding by the London and North Western Railway to the Euston Square terminus; and that having conferred with Mr. Monro on the subject he sees strong objections to the arrangement proposed by the Railway Company.

I am,

Sir,

Your obedient servant,

[Signed: E. Leigh Pemberton]
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  #225  
Old 05-18-2018, 12:11 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Following receipt of the negative letter from the Home Office of 20 April, Richard Prowse of the Board of Customs wrote to the General Manager of the London & North Western Railway at Euston Station on 24 April 1888 as follows:

Sir,

With reference to the letter from this Department of the 22nd ultimo and previous correspondence on the subject of the proposal of the London and North Western Railway Company to establish a system of through conveyance of baggage from the United States and Canada to London via Liverpool, I am directed by the Board of Customs to acquaint you that they deemed it necessary to consult the Secretary of State for the Home Department in relation to the proposed change and that they have now received a reply to the effect that strong objections to the arrangement are entertained by the Chief Officers of the Detective Police. Under these circumstances no further steps can be taken in this matter.

I am,

Sir,

Your obedient servant,

[Signed: R.T. Prowse]
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  #226  
Old 05-18-2018, 12:15 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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At this point, all seemed lost for the railway company's proposal. Could it possibly be brought back to life? Or was it dead and buried?

On that thrilling cliffhanger I will pause until the next exciting installment…..
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  #227  
Old 05-18-2018, 02:36 PM
Steadmund Brand Steadmund Brand is offline
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On behalf of Mike......Thanks for buying the book David

Steadmund Brand
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  #228  
Old 05-18-2018, 02:44 PM
mklhawley mklhawley is offline
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Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
For anyone whose curiosity is whetted by talk of my debate with Jonathan Hainsworth, it can be found here:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...r#post401 951

and it also seemed to metamorphosize into another thread:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...r#post402 148

But I do warn you, the posts were very long!

You just can't stop your incessant posting, eh, David. You hate me so much, you're trying to sabotage it. What is behind David?


So, David and I would both like the reader to revisit David’s attempt to “review” Jonathan Hainsworth’s book.

First, because the Casebook reader likely has not read his book, one cannot see how David uses the lawyer’s trick of paraphrasing, minimalizing evidence to the contrary, and misleading statements.


This creates a strawman argument.


David crafts an inappropriate spin on Jonathan’s explanations and then he bashes his own spin. The result by itself is a convincing “book review,’ especially because David is actually a good researcher. The problem is that he just led the reader down the path of untruth. Why I say it’s a lawyer’s trick is because in David’s paralegal world, the adversarial system of justice forces David’s bosses (the attorneys) to merely argue to win; not argue for truth. It’s the judge’s and jury’s responsibility to weed out the truth from both sides on an argument.


We then see what he does on these threads. Once he’s lured an author into a so-called debate, its death by paraphrasing all over again. In this case, he takes Jonathan’s cogent post and splinters it with about a dozen mini-posts. The effect is to stop the reader from seeing the overall logical path Jonathan was pointing out. Jonathan catches this, but because he does nothing else in life and has the time to live on Casebook, he then posts incessantly until he exhausts the author. Because the author leaves, he then gets the opportunity to spin at the end. He believes he’s won the final round, so he thinks he made his case. He then goes back to his online article, a document that the reader sees no one arguing against, and spins it even more.


Ultimately, David’s goal is to win; not seek the truth. In the case of this thread, I’ve found numerous problems yet have only revealed a few. I am not going to play the game he did with Jonathan. Sorry David. As I said, I’m waiting for that book you claim you’re not writing.

Honestly, if you want to see where David's arguments rot of error, contact me privately, since I am not going to allow him to accomplish his lawyer's trick on me.


Oh by the way, you will not be successful in purchasing David’s Spandau Ballet book, but if you can, you’ll find out he was quite nasty to the band. He’s trying to screw the band’s credibility by claiming that they stole the name. They just may have, but how interesting that David likes to be nasty in other areas too.

Sincerely,
Mike
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  #229  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:04 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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On behalf of Mike......Thanks for buying the book David
Why are you posting on behalf of Mike?
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  #230  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:08 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mklhawley View Post
You just can't stop your incessant posting, eh, David. You hate me so much, you're trying to sabotage it. What is behind David?
Well, Mike, I've already explained the reason for my "incessant" posting. I'm trying to convince you that the deployment of the 12 constables at London Railway stations, as referred to in Colonel Pearson's letter of 20 November 1888, had absolutely nothing to do with Tumblety.

Do you accept that simple fact?

If you do, then I don't need to post the rest of the correspondence. If you don't accept it, then clearly I do.
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