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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

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  #51  
Old 06-02-2016, 09:38 AM
Errata Errata is offline
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So the uterus and part of the bladder was secured "with one sweep of the knife"...
Which makes it unlikely that the fetus in a jar was hers. Such a cut would be unlikely to result in an intact fetus of that age.
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  #52  
Old 06-02-2016, 10:36 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Which makes it unlikely that the fetus in a jar was hers. Such a cut would be unlikely to result in an intact fetus of that age.
Sorry, Errata, but the "one sweep of the knife" thing was never there in Hebberts text. Debra explained that earlier in the thread.

The similarity of the portions that went missing from Chapman and Jackson as regards the uterus and it´s surroundings is nevertheless striking.
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  #53  
Old 06-02-2016, 11:00 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Sorry, Errata, but the "one sweep of the knife" thing was never there in Hebberts text. Debra explained that earlier in the thread.

The similarity of the portions that went missing from Chapman and Jackson as regards the uterus and it´s surroundings is nevertheless striking.
Yes, I don't mind admitting when I make a blooper.
Part of the bladder and upper portion of the vagina was still attached to the uterus though-I didn't imagine that one.
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  #54  
Old 06-02-2016, 11:45 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Yes, I don't mind admitting when I make a blooper.
I for one can think of someone who should learn from that.

But that would predispose that he was able to realize when he is wrong.

Which in it´s turn means that he would need to be able to tell correct information from faulty information.

Farewell, hope!
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  #55  
Old 06-02-2016, 02:25 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Yes, I don't mind admitting when I make a blooper.
Part of the bladder and upper portion of the vagina was still attached to the uterus though-I didn't imagine that one.
I have now received back some clarification on other matters I raised with Dr Biggs. The first was in relation to the cut uterus of Jackson. I am going to post what he says but as usual you will no doubt reject it in favour of your own explantion !

Q "The Uterus had been opened on the left side by a vertical cut 6 in long through the left wall; inside uterus were the placenta, cord and membranes.

Any thoughts ?

A. I would suggest that there are two possibilities: either somebody was deliberately trying to open the uterus to get to the foetus, or the uterus was inadvertently cut open during whatever other dismemberment / mutilation / etc. was going on. Either are possible, and I don’t think you can really determine intent with any degree of confidence by looking at the injury… let alone reading someone else’s description of it"

The I posed the question regarding the ensiform cartilage the answer to which I think is already known but I wil post it in any event.

A. The ‘ensiform’ cartilage (or process) is another term for the xiphisternum, which is the little protuberance at the bottom of the front of the ribcage in the midline. So the cut described is essentially an opening up down the middle of the front of somebody’s abdomen from as far as you can go at the top (the bottom of the ribcage) to as far as you can go at the bottom (the top of the pelvis).

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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  #56  
Old 06-03-2016, 09:46 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
I have now received back some clarification on other matters I raised with Dr Biggs. The first was in relation to the cut uterus of Jackson. I am going to post what he says but as usual you will no doubt reject it in favour of your own explantion !

Q "The Uterus had been opened on the left side by a vertical cut 6 in long through the left wall; inside uterus were the placenta, cord and membranes.

Any thoughts ?

A. I would suggest that there are two possibilities: either somebody was deliberately trying to open the uterus to get to the foetus, or the uterus was inadvertently cut open during whatever other dismemberment / mutilation / etc. was going on. Either are possible, and I don’t think you can really determine intent with any degree of confidence by looking at the injury… let alone reading someone else’s description of it"

The I posed the question regarding the ensiform cartilage the answer to which I think is already known but I wil post it in any event.

A. The ‘ensiform’ cartilage (or process) is another term for the xiphisternum, which is the little protuberance at the bottom of the front of the ribcage in the midline. So the cut described is essentially an opening up down the middle of the front of somebody’s abdomen from as far as you can go at the top (the bottom of the ribcage) to as far as you can go at the bottom (the top of the pelvis).

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Thank you Dr Biggs.

So, Trevor. What 'intent' have you seen me ascribe to the opening of the uterus and removing the foeutus?

On the other hand, isn't it you that has been claiming it is some sort of obstetric procedure?
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Last edited by Debra A : 06-03-2016 at 09:58 AM.
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  #57  
Old 06-03-2016, 12:24 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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I wish I could find it because when I found it I thought it was important enough and that action of someone may have given us a clue as to the death. I will continue to look.

"A vaginal incision is a surgical cut through the vulva and vaginal region, generally for performing a hysterectomy, episiotomy or a corrective operation to restore prolapse of the uterus, bladder or vaginal canal. During surgeries involving a vaginal incision, tissue between the anus and vagina are spliced open while the patient is under anesthesia. At that point, the doctor is able to access the inner pelvic region for the purpose of adjusting or removing a baby, fibroids, a diseased uterus or a bladder"

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
WiseGEEK to the rescue, eh?

FYI - episiotomy is an incision into the muscle between vagina and anus, carried out during difficult childbirth and is not a 'vaginal wall' incision. The vaginal wall forms a passage leading from the vulva to the cervix and uterus.

The Rainham torso had the uterus of someone who had never borne children Dr Hebbert tells us, and Dr Biggs tells confirms that there are observable differences between the uterus of a woman who has had children and one who hasn't, in terms of size and shape, confirming that Dr Hebbert was well within his capability in saying she had never borne children just by measurement of the uterus.
The fact that she had never borne children makes it also unlikely (but not totally impossible) that she had a prolapse of the uterus that needed correction, taking into account the predicted age range she fell into.
It is also a fact that none of these procedures required 'back street' work and if genuine problems, would all have been done in reputable hospitals or infirmaries.
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