Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by Simon Wood 9 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by packers stem 14 minutes ago.
Non-Fiction: The Mysterious Fred - by Simon Wood 20 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by packers stem 27 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Joseph Isaacs - by Wickerman 33 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Joseph Isaacs - by rjpalmer 44 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - (18 posts)
Non-Fiction: The Mysterious Fred - (13 posts)
Casebook Announcements: Katherine Bradshaw Amin (1980-2018) - (3 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Joseph Isaacs - (2 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Kansas Physician Confirms Howard Report - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 06-01-2016, 03:46 PM
MsWeatherwax MsWeatherwax is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 205
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

In the above situation, it would be perfectly possible for the uterus, cervix and vagina to appear normal to naked eye examination at post-mortem (i.e. no abortion or vaginal delivery would have taken place).
I am very happy to be told I'm wrong, but I find it extremely hard to believe that an attempt to manually dilate a cervix would not leave changes visible to the naked eye.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-01-2016, 03:48 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,949
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsWeatherwax View Post
I am very happy to be told I'm wrong, but I find it extremely hard to believe that an attempt to manually dilate a cervix would not leave changes visible to the naked eye.
Dont shoot me I am only the messenger.

I think you have to take into account Victorian Doctors were just that, not gynaecologists like we have today.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Last edited by Trevor Marriott : 06-01-2016 at 03:51 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-01-2016, 03:52 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,100
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
Me to, progress is being made at last !
Dr Biggs has confirmed what I said, not you!
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-01-2016, 03:55 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,100
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsWeatherwax View Post
I am very happy to be told I'm wrong, but I find it extremely hard to believe that an attempt to manually dilate a cervix would not leave changes visible to the naked eye.
I would have thought it might have damaged the cervix of a woman who'd never given birth before and wasn't already in labour?
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-01-2016, 04:05 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,949
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
Dr Biggs has confirmed what I said, not you!
I beg to differ, but let not argue over trivialities.

The balance of probabilities now swings towards Jackson not being murdered.

And you passed no comment on the likely cause of death of the Whitehall Torso who perhaps died in the same way thus ruling out murder.

Or perhaps the 1887 female torso who was found to have had an incision made in her vaginal wall and perhaps bled to death.

To me that looks very much like something which could have something to do with procuring an abortion.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-01-2016, 04:14 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,100
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
I beg to differ, but let not argue over trivialities.

The balance of probabilities now swings towards Jackson not being murdered.

And you passed no comment on the likely cause of death of the Whitehall Torso who perhaps died in the same way thus ruling out murder.

Or perhaps the 1887 female torso who was found to have had an incision made in her vaginal wall and perhaps bled to death.

To me that looks very much like something which could have something to do with procuring an abortion.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
No. Dr Biggs has confirmed that there is no proof that Elizabeth's death was abortion related and that the foetus being removed from the abdomen has nothing to do with the cause of her death from 'an operation' as you suggested. Both Errata, me and others have said that an instant death could be the only explanation but that an abortion had not been performed as Bond concluded.
Dr Biggs doesn't seem familiar with the horrific and often violent methods inflicted on women to procure abortion and the damage done and often evident in cases where they describe a 'sound' or other implement (knitting needles have been mentioned) being introduced into the uterus often causing severe damage. The Coroner did advise the jury that some experienced criminal abortionists might not cause visible damage but I don't think that was the norm.

And if further proof was needed that you never read posts properly I have also said that the Whitehall case could be abortion related but there is no proof as there was no uterus or even pelvis or pelvic organs found, so that would be even more speculative to suggest abortion in that case.
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

Last edited by Debra A : 06-01-2016 at 04:16 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-01-2016, 04:14 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,949
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
I would have thought it might have damaged the cervix of a woman who'd never given birth before and wasn't already in labour?
Debra

What you think is irrelevant, its what the medical experts say that counts.

Perhaps when you become a forensic pathologist or a gynaecologist then you may be in a position to challenge someone of equal standing.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-01-2016, 04:19 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,949
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
No. Dr Biggs has confirmed that there is no proof that Elizabeth's death was abortion related and that the foetus being removed from the abdomen has nothing to do with the cause of her death from 'an operation' as you suggested. Both Errata, me and others have said that an instant death could be the only explanation but that an abortion had not been performed as Bond concluded.
Dr Biggs doesn't seem familiar with the horrific and often violent methods inflicted on women to procure abortion and the damage done and often evident in cases where they describe a 'sound' or other implement (knitting needles have been mentioned) being introduced into the uterus often causing severe damage. The Coroner did advise the jury that some experienced criminal abortionists might not cause visible damage but I don't think that was the norm.
Its a waste of time with you, you wont listen. You think you know best. You have your own agenda, no matter what is put before you its not right and doesn't sit with your theory.

First you say you like his conclusions, then you are pulling them apart. How are you more knowledgeable in Victorian abortion methods than Dr Biggs ?

Three words I say again with regards to these torsos and in particular Jackson "balance of probabilities"

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Last edited by Trevor Marriott : 06-01-2016 at 04:22 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-01-2016, 04:34 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,100
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

Or perhaps the 1887 female torso who was found to have had an incision made in her vaginal wall and perhaps bled to death.

To me that looks very much like something which could have something to do with procuring an abortion.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
I don't recall any vaginal incision mentioned in the Rainham case, perhaps you can reference it as I must have missed it. I can't see why an incision in the vaginal wall of a woman who definetly wasn't pregnant and had the uterus of someone who had never borne a child is indicative of an abortion. I seem to recall there were signs she had just menstruated too?
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-01-2016, 04:40 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,100
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
Its a waste of time with you, you wont listen. You think you know best. You have your own agenda, no matter what is put before you its not right and doesn't sit with your theory.

First you say you like his conclusions, then you are pulling them apart. How are you more knowledgeable in Victorian abortion methods than Dr Biggs ?

Three words I say again with regards to these torsos and in particular Jackson "balance of probabilities"

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
What are you talking about! I agree with Dr Biggs , he has supported what we have been telling you, perhaps that is why you are cross now?

I am merely pointing out that the historical record is full of women who an attempt at violent means to procure abortion has done severe damage. Dr Biggs is describing a very well carried out attempt that leaves no trace, which would be the rarer method I feel. That's just my opinion. You can put it to him if you like, if he has proof that I am definitely wrong then so be it. I wasn't aware he was a medical historian so apologies for doubting his expert opinion on historical abortion practices.
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.