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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #151  
Old 08-14-2018, 08:40 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Good post Trevor, but I thought I'd just remind us that this was only an inquest held in a room in a school for poor boys - a sensational trial it certainly wasn't. With that in mind, would the protocols adhering to a criminal trial necessarily have been applied to their fullest extent? Would the authorities have really cared if a mere witness used his "work name" in this context? Would they even have thought of asking a witness whether he was giving his real name? Would it have even occurred to Cross to inform them otherwise?
Sam

They might have if the statement taken from him was in the name Lechmere and he is sworn in as Cross.
Those are questions we don't have the answers to, but we know that the coroner didnt show any cause for concern when Cross was giving his testimony, nor was their cause for concern with the police who were investigating the murder. So where does Fish come up with his sinister theory surrounding the two names

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  #152  
Old 08-14-2018, 09:09 AM
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caz caz is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
If he’d been arrested after the Eddowes murder for example it would have been difficult/impossible for him to claim when questioned about Nichols that he was nowhere near Buck’s Row as it was on his route to work.
A pertinent observation, HS.

He'd have needed to avoid like the plague being connected with any of his subsequent murder scenes, after his very public appearance in Buck's Row, yet he supposedly chose to kill in location after location, all of which could have been associated, in one way or another, with his known movements, if the police had only been given a reason to look at him a bit more closely. And according to Fish, Lechmere himself gave them several reasons, right near the start of his killing career!

I will never grasp the logic of a serial killer doing this, nor the logic of a suspectologist proposing it.

Love,

Caz
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  #153  
Old 08-14-2018, 11:55 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by caz View Post
A pertinent observation, HS.

He'd have needed to avoid like the plague being connected with any of his subsequent murder scenes, after his very public appearance in Buck's Row, yet he supposedly chose to kill in location after location, all of which could have been associated, in one way or another, with his known movements, if the police had only been given a reason to look at him a bit more closely. And according to Fish, Lechmere himself gave them several reasons, right near the start of his killing career!

I will never grasp the logic of a serial killer doing this, nor the logic of a suspectologist proposing it.

Love,

Caz
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Lechmere appears to keep putting his foot in it Caz.
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  #154  
Old 08-14-2018, 01:39 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Certain though I am that the posts on here are all examples of fair judgment, deep thinking and extensive knowledge, I can only bow to them in an unread state - I´m off to Iceland early tomorrow for a week´s flyfishing, and so I must abstain from soaking up the wisdom on offer.

Until the next time!
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  #155  
Old 08-14-2018, 02:05 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Certain though I am that the posts on here are all examples of fair judgment, deep thinking and extensive knowledge, I can only bow to them in an unread state - I´m off to Iceland early tomorrow for a week´s flyfishing, and so I must abstain from soaking up the wisdom on offer.

Until the next time!
Hope you have permission from the shop manager !

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  #156  
Old 08-14-2018, 02:19 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
Hope you have permission from the shop manager !
In case Fisherman doesn't know, "Iceland" is a chain of shops in Britain which serves the higher-end of the frozen food market. Their Cheesy Potato Pockets are, I'm reliably informed, a regular feature on the Queen's breakfast tray.
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  #157  
Old 08-14-2018, 04:28 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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In case Fisherman doesn't know, "Iceland" is a chain of shops in Britain which serves the higher-end of the frozen food market. Their Cheesy Potato Pockets are, I'm reliably informed, a regular feature on the Queen's breakfast tray.
I always suspected that you were well connected Gareth
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  #158  
Old 08-15-2018, 01:57 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Why didn’t Lechmere the Ripper, on hearing Paul approaching and having decided to stick around, throw the knife over a wall or just into the shadows? This would have relieved him of the need to come up with a ‘Mizen Scam.’ There was no DNA at the time and as long as the knife didn’t have ‘property of C.A. Lechmere’ engraved on it there’s no way that it could have been connected to him (Caz will recognise Wallace case thinking here ) So what would have been the worst that the police could have said when the knife was discovered half an hour or an hour or more after Lechmere had long gone? They might easily have said “why would the killer have discarded his knife?” For which the suggested explaination would have been “the killer heard Lechmere approaching and in panic he rid himself of the murder weapon in case Lechmere raised the alarm and found himself confronted with a Constable or two.”

If Lechmere had the presence of mind and a cool enough head to stick around at the crime scene and then scam his way past a Constable with another witness in tow why didn’t he have the presence of mind to dump the knife and avoid the risk?
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  #159  
Old 08-15-2018, 08:12 AM
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caz caz is offline
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Hi HS,

If Lechmere had walked calmly away from the scene [guilty or innocent] before Robert Paul arrived, we could now have a situation whereby nobody would ever have heard of Lechmere or Cross, and it would be Paul squeezed into the ripper's boots.

Paul would have been entirely on his own with Nichols. He'd have been on the late side for work if he spent a similar amount of time with her and then went to tell the nearest copper, who continued knocking up for a bit before going off to attend the scene. Arguably Paul would have hurried on his way without giving any personal details, then, on hearing that the woman had been foully murdered, he'd have had a go at the copper in the newspaper for his lack of urgency and done his "all coppers are bar stewards" bit.

And then - this is the biggy - he'd have avoided the authorities and the police would have tracked him down, questioned his version of events, as told to the newspaper, and made him attend the inquest.

Chapman's murder in Hanbury Street would only have made things worse for Paul in the 21st century.

So by staying put and ostensibly doing his duty, it looks like Lechmere saved Paul from the fate of becoming a 21st century suspect instead of himself. How unselfish of Lechmere if he was indeed the ripper, when he could so easily have left Paul - the next man to come along - to carry the can, by simply walking calmly away when he first heard the footsteps. He could even have dropped the murder weapon by the body if he'd really wanted to put the knife into this innocent stranger and save his own bacon.

Lechmere wasn't so smart after all, was he?

Love,

Caz
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  #160  
Old 08-16-2018, 01:13 AM
Rob1n Rob1n is offline
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Default Dump the knife?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Why didn’t Lechmere the Ripper, on hearing Paul approaching and having decided to stick around, throw the knife over a wall or just into the shadows? This would have relieved him of the need to come up with a ‘Mizen Scam.’ There was no DNA at the time and as long as the knife didn’t have ‘property of C.A. Lechmere’ engraved on it there’s no way that it could have been connected to him (Caz will recognise Wallace case thinking here ) So what would have been the worst that the police could have said when the knife was discovered half an hour or an hour or more after Lechmere had long gone? They might easily have said “why would the killer have discarded his knife?” For which the suggested explaination would have been “the killer heard Lechmere approaching and in panic he rid himself of the murder weapon in case Lechmere raised the alarm and found himself confronted with a Constable or two.”

If Lechmere had the presence of mind and a cool enough head to stick around at the crime scene and then scam his way past a Constable with another witness in tow why didn’t he have the presence of mind to dump the knife and avoid the risk?
Hi HS, perhaps the answer is in your question/s, what if the knife could have been identified as Lechmere's, could be that it was gifted to him by a relative or possibly an employer and, possibly either unique in design ( and therfore also held sentimental value, so he wouldn't want to dump it) it's a possibility that it could be associated with him, I'd imagine it could have been a good quality knife as it seems to have been fairly strong and well looked after, generally, if a knife is a quality one, it possibly means it's expensive and therfore, looked after.
So, if that's the case, he wouldn't want to just dump it, after all
What would he do for his next victim (Chapman), he'd have to buy a new knife which would be difficult as he probably couldn't afford another quality one?
Also, as he was obviously a nutter (if he was in fact the Ripper), he might well have reasoned that his best defence was to keep the knife and, should things go south and Paul showed any sign of suspecting him, he could quickly silence him too?
It has also just occured to me that his knife, if a special or sentimental one, might well have been notched per kill as the gun slingers of the old west would do to the grip scales of their Colt 45's after they'd gunned down someone at high noon, who's to say with a nutter?
Possibly, as a sexual thing too, he might have seen it as an extension of his penis as he penetrates the unfortunates bodies, who knows with these perverts?
Then again, perhaps there was no knife - he might have been just walking to work��

Last edited by Rob1n : 08-16-2018 at 01:16 AM.
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