Different Killers

[GregBaron]

Crazy as a loon...

No chastisement--that is my belief.

Oh good Lynn, didn't want to misrepresent.

It's certainly not crazy....unlike your poor Isens......

Wonder why the others tried to copy his slicing and dicing........?



Greg

[Batman]

picquerism

Hi Batman,

You may find this article, by Keppel et al. interesting if you haven't seen it before. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jip.22/pdf There is a discussion on signature and MO, in relation to JtR. As regards organ removal and placement at the scene, their conclusion is that he was attempting to destroy the humanity of the victims and for shock value (17). They also seem to believe that the murders were organized.

I just finished reading this. It's an excellent paper from an expert whose profiling has been used to catch lust murderers in the past. I am happy to note he is C5+1 like myself which I learned from Sugden.

Its mandatory reading, especially for those who favour multiple killers. His argument is very compelling and my new word this week is picquerism!

[lynn cates]

work of an imitator

Hello Greg. Thanks.

Others? Liz was not. And "MJK" was a VERY different example.

I am MOST concerned with Kate. Evidence:

1. Look at John's interviews and inquest testimony.

2. John and Kate had been back from Kent some time.

3. Whoever killed Kate seems to have been planning for some time.

Why make her look like Annie? Answer seems obvious.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Nichols and Eddowes both had their abdomen open with a long slash.

Chapman and Kelly had their abdomen cut away in approximately three parts.

Chapman and Eddowes both had intestines thrown over their shoulder.

All was 'posed' post mutilation.

There is zero precedence for imitation due to the rare nature of the killers disorder.

[Spotty]

Excellent and informative journal article by the esteemed Bob Keppel. He works from the established facts and uses his own innovative HITS database to draw conclusions.
This man is a vastly experienced detective and has thought outside the box from his earliest work with Ted Bundy.
If he says that JtR was responsible for the murders of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman. Stride. Eddowes and Kelly - that's good enough for me.
Thanks again for the link!

[lynn cates]

fallacy

Hello Spotty. What does the phrase, Argumentum ad Verecundiam mean?

Cheers.
LC

[Spotty]

Hello, I could google the phrase but I wouldn't want to deprive you of the pleasure of telling me wild guess - argument from truth?

[Spotty]

Ok ok I googled it. Argument from authority. At first glance my post would definitely indicate that, but I actually DO believe in Keppels system, have read most if not all his published works and I believe in his core signature analysis. C'est tout.

[John G]

I just finished reading this. It's an excellent paper from an expert whose profiling has been used to catch lust murderers in the past. I am happy to note he is C5+1 like myself which I learned from Sugden.

Its mandatory reading, especially for those who favour multiple killers. His argument is very compelling and my new word this week is picquerism!

Hi Batman, yes, I found many of the conclusions very convincing. I was particularly impressed by the picquerism argument, and it reinforced my belief that Tabram really was a Ripper victim. In fact, for the first time I could see a logical progression from Tabram (stabbing the genital area), to Nichols (mutilating those areas), through to Chapman (harvesting organs).

I don't, of course, say that you're nor entitled to disagree with Keppel, everyone has the right to their own opinion, but at the very least you have to accept that he is an expert, perhaps even a renowned expert, in his particular field.

You know, I'm going to get myself in a lot of hot water for stating this, but I do seem to remember a discussion recently about non-experts challenging and debating with established and respected figures of authority in their particular discipline.

Sorry, Lynn, it was a bit unfair of me, but I'm feeling a little mischievous today and just couldn't resist!

[Spotty]

I just finished reading this. It's an excellent paper from an expert whose profiling has been used to catch lust murderers in the past. I am happy to note he is C5+1 like myself which I learned from Sugden.

Its mandatory reading, especially for those who favour multiple killers. His argument is very compelling and my new word this week is picquerism!

Hi Batman, just a minor technicality - you use the term "profiling" about Keppel's work, when he is in fact deeply opposed to it. He works with facts.

[lynn cates]

argument

Hello Spotty. Thanks.

Actually-in spite of believing it or not--it IS an argument from authority. This, from first or subsequent perusals.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

authority

Hello John. Thanks. No problem.

So this Keppel character is an authority on "JTR"? Well, that is QUITE doubtful.

Cheers.
LC

[Spotty]

Hi LC.
Does that mean that referencing any peer-reviewed journal article written by a person in a position of authority should be considered fallacious ?
I agree that technically you are correct about the way I presented my opinion, but I don't consider my support of this article to be based on a fallacy.

[GregBaron]

Blame the Ripper...

Others? Liz was not. And "MJK" was a VERY different example.

I am MOST concerned with Kate. Evidence:

1. Look at John's interviews and inquest testimony.

2. John and Kate had been back from Kent some time.

3. Whoever killed Kate seems to have been planning for some time.

Why make her look like Annie? Answer seems obvious.

Excellent Lynn...

I know many say MJK was quite different. Others disagree, simply indoors with more time...

As for Kate, perhaps, but for me it's hard to find a motive for killing such a desperate, poor female...

By answer seems obvious, do you mean to throw off the scent? Not sure what advantage that proffers really, unless the cops really are morons, i.e., "Oh I couldn't have killed Kate because I was in Kent when Chapman was killed......" Hard to fathom..........and if imitating why grab the kidney...........? Certainly can't point to your Isen....who is already on lock down...

I am impressed with the fact that you stick to your guns Lynn....




Greg

[MacGuffin]

Hi John G.,

Hi Lynn,

Thanks for reply. Yes, it does seem that Berner Street is a problematically venue, particularly if you believe that JtR targeted prostitutes and the victims selected the location. Of course, the sites may have been chosen by the killer but, Berner Street aside, it does seem that most of the other murder sites were known, or suspected, to be frequented by prostitutes. Of course, in respect of Annie, that still doesn't explain why her killer decided to strike just as it was getting lighter and people were getting ready to leave for work.

I'm not really sure whether Annie's killer was insane or just somewhat disorganized. Ted Bundy, of course, went from organized to disorganized. And I seem to remember that even during his organized phase he went up to one one victim, in front of witnesses, and said something like "my name's Ted, fancy a lift?" So, not only did he abduct someone in front of witnesses, he used his real name and his own car, the VW! I believe that the police put out a request for information on anyone called Ted, who drives a similar car. I believe his name was then given by his girlfriend, and other friends, but for some reason the police didn't act on the information.

According to Ann Rule's "The Stranger Beside Me", law enforcement had thousands of tips and were becoming computerized specifically for the "Ted" murders. They were cross referencing tips with VW owners named Ted, and the entering of data was extremely time consuming; by the time Bundy was arrested, law enforcement found that his name was the next of the tips to be entered into their new system.
Ann Rule herself had phoned in Bundy's name as a tip, having known him from volunteering together at a suicide hot line, as well as an occasional lunch date and sending each other Christmas cards. After Bundy was convicted, Rule was the only member of the press (a police reporter at the time) that he trusted enough for an "honest" interview.