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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Other Mysteries > A6 Murders

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  #5031  
Old 09-19-2018, 02:13 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
....




This is precisely what he would have encountered after getting off the bus, as evidenced by the two attached photos from that time.
What's happened to the picture house mentioned on page 122 of Woff's book? And why hasn't Woff mentioned the traffic island or the railings?

Woff had access to Hanratty's original statement to his solicitor, did this mention the picture house but omitted to mention the island and railings?

If, as we all know, there were 29 sweet shops, newsagents etc. on the Scotland Road there would only be a need to concentrate the checks on the (few/one) opposite a traffic island and railings, yet neither Foot nor Woff refer to this, so it would seem that the bizzies did not know about the island and railings.
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  #5032  
Old 09-19-2018, 02:29 AM
Graham Graham is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
What's happened to the picture house mentioned on page 122 of Woff's book? And why hasn't Woff mentioned the traffic island or the railings?

Woff had access to Hanratty's original statement to his solicitor, did this mention the picture house but omitted to mention the island and railings?

If, as we all know, there were 29 sweet shops, newsagents etc. on the Scotland Road there would only be a need to concentrate the checks on the (few/one) opposite a traffic island and railings, yet neither Foot nor Woff refer to this, so it would seem that the bizzies did not know about the island and railings.
I have to confess that SH's claim regarding what JH is reported to have said in court about the traffic island is new to me. Can this please be checked by someone with access to the trial proceedings?

Indeed, what did happen to the picture house? I have an admittedly imperfect memory of someone on the pre-crash Forum doing some digging on the spot in Liverpool, and who discovered that there never was a picture-house opposite Cowley's shop. Which does not mean to say that there were no picture-houses at all on Scotland Rd., and that another of the 29 sweet-shops could well have been situated opposite one.

JH was adept in his construction of both the Liverpool and Rhyl 'alibis' in using his memories of previous, proven, visits to both places. These memories are nearly always muddled, however, and are not, and were not, reliable.

Graham
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We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze
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  #5033  
Old 09-19-2018, 03:58 AM
NickB NickB is offline
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The pertinent description by Hanratty of his visit to the sweetshop is the one in his original statement.

Hanratty’s description changed after Kleinman visited the sweetshop and interviewed Mrs D, as shown by the interview notes in December when he started talking about the sweetshop being on a corner and opposite lavatories. It is clear to me that Kleinman was feeding back to Hanratty information about the location of Cowley’s shop and Mrs D’s account of the road name asked for by the visitor.
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  #5034  
Old 09-19-2018, 06:42 AM
OneRound OneRound is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickB View Post
The pertinent description by Hanratty of his visit to the sweetshop is the one in his original statement.

Hanratty’s description changed after Kleinman visited the sweetshop and interviewed Mrs D, as shown by the interview notes in December when he started talking about the sweetshop being on a corner and opposite lavatories. It is clear to me that Kleinman was feeding back to Hanratty information about the location of Cowley’s shop and Mrs D’s account of the road name asked for by the visitor.
Nick - I take it from this that you accept there was a visitor to the sweetshop albeit certainly not Hanratty.

Do you believe the visitor told Hanratty of the visit to the sweetshop or do you believe Hanratty got lucky in fabricating his own visit and then built on it with details of the actual visitor supplied by Mrs D via Kleinman?

If the former, the provider and Hanratty made a p*ss poor job of getting the details sorted - although many would say that was normally the case with Hanratty.

If the latter and putting aside the size of the coincidence, Hanratty and Kleinman were certainly running a risk that the true visitor would go to the police once details became public.

For my own part, I've long thought that Hanratty bought the sweetshop alibi from the visitor albeit for the wrong day. He was either sold a pup there or chanced he could still use it. After all, it was hardly a buyer's market!

Best regards,
OneRound
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  #5035  
Old 09-19-2018, 07:35 AM
NickB NickB is offline
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I think there was a visitor asking directions, as Mrs D not only recalled the event but mentioned it to Harding the same day. Asking Harding if he knew the road is what she would have asked Cowley’s brother instead if it had been the Tuesday, when he was serving with her (as I believe you pointed out previously).

Hanratty admitted that he went to Liverpool to get his friends to “stand by their alibi” (in other words, get them to provide him with one) so you would have thought he could have got something. It appears that Swanwick believed he purchased the near-alibi. However I don’t know if the judge would have allowed Swanwick to suggest the ‘information from Kleinman’ alternative without evidence. Although the judge did let Swanwick get away with suggesting underhand action by Kleinman in talking to Anderson and Jones before they gave evidence.
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  #5036  
Old 09-19-2018, 09:09 AM
OneRound OneRound is online now
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Thanks, Nick.

Yep, I believe Mrs D not asking Cowley's brother is a strong indicator of the day.

Btw, what do we know of attempts - particularly by Foot and Woff - to trace the bus conductor who allegedly told Hanratty he was in the wrong area before he disembarked and headed to the sweetshop?

Best regards,
OneRound
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