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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Catherine Eddowes

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  #1  
Old 10-08-2018, 07:24 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Default Eddowes V-shape wounds are scissors I think

I think Eddowes has had her face attacked by a pair of scissors. The V shapes aren't depressions of a knife. It's a sharp pair of scissors clipping downwards from above her head. I think JtR brought scissors to make it easier for him to get through their clothing and is using them also to disfigure them.
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Old 10-08-2018, 07:49 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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Reckon he used a surgical knife to mark the Maxillary sinuses.
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Old 10-08-2018, 08:01 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Quote:
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I think Eddowes has had her face attacked by a pair of scissors. The V shapes aren't depressions of a knife
Yes they are. The inverted "V" shapes were described as being cause by "a cut which peeled up the skin forming a triangular flap". Scissors don't "peel up", they pinch or cut. In contrast, a knife slid through a curved surface - such as that of an orange, apple, potato or a human cheek - will indeed "peel up the skin" and leave a triangular flap. The flap won't have a perfectly sharp vertex, but the overall shape will be triangular, as the cut will be wider at the end than at its commencement, owing to the curvature of the orange/apple/.../cheekbone beneath.
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Old 10-08-2018, 08:04 AM
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Reckon he used a surgical knife to mark the Maxillary sinuses.
I think that appears to be the only knife wound to her face. I think the rest was done with scissors, including the bridge above the nose.

Scissors makes sense because in the dark he is hardly getting those V shapes right by slicing which is not so likely in darkness and certainly time consuming which why it was always assumed it just by knife depression. Yet scissor snips isn't time-consuming and he doesn't have to worry about alignment of the sides of the V to a point.
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Old 10-08-2018, 08:11 AM
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... being cause by "a cut which peeled up the skin forming a triangular flap". Scissors don't "peel up", .
That's not the pathological meaning of peeling skin. Here it would just mean damage to the skin as a result of something unintentional causing it or as a direct result of something else, which would be the shape of the incisions around it. Basically, the flap is the peeling of the epidermis. Which is just one layer.
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Old 10-08-2018, 08:27 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Yes they are. The inverted "V" shapes were described as being cause by "a cut which peeled up the skin forming a triangular flap". Scissors don't "peel up", they pinch or cut. In contrast, a knife slid through a curved surface - such as that of an orange, apple, potato or a human cheek - will indeed "peel up the skin" and leave a triangular flap. The flap won't have a perfectly sharp vertex, but the overall shape will be triangular, as the cut will be wider at the end than at its commencement, owing to the curvature of the orange/apple/.../cheekbone beneath.
I think you need to put this to the test. I cannot see how one cut or slice with a knife in the course of the attack would result in V formations and flaps. Especially as they were on both sides of the face, to me they look as though they were done by design, and if that be the case the killer would have had to be very artistic and skillful with the knife in almost total darkness, and of course we get back to the max time the killer would have had with the victim to be able to have done all he is alleged to have done

The more he is purported to have done the more time it would have taken !

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Old 10-08-2018, 08:27 AM
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Also, it doesn't look like he used the same instrument on her face at all.

As pointed out the right side of his face the Maxillary sinuses are deeply slashed through.

To believe it's the same instrument one would believe that he is alternating the pressure behind each cut. I think he just switched instrument. I wonder if he brought the scissors to take away a piece of clothing deliberately. Even as a souvenir.
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Old 10-08-2018, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
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That's not the pathological meaning of peeling skin
I don't think there is a pathological meaning to describing something as a "peeled up flap", is there?
Quote:
Basically, the flap is the peeling of the epidermis. Which is just one layer.
I know, which is why I wrote about the production of a triangular shaped flap if one slices a knife through the skin of something stretched over a curved surface, like a potato etc.

In order to use a scissors to inflict those wounds, the killer would have had to face Eddowes' feet, positioned the heel of his hand at the level of her forehead with the scissors pointing "south", snipping through one cheek before repeating the operation on the other side. Why on earth would he do such a thing?
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Old 10-08-2018, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
I think you need to put this to the test. I cannot see how one cut or slice with a knife in the course of the attack would result in V formations and flaps.
Thanks, Trevor, but I've said all I need to say about the inverted "V" wounds in a Ripperologist article years ago, and I see no reason to revise my position on them. So, instead of elaborating in words, I'll let a picture do the talking for me:

Name:  Eddowes.jpg
Views: 230
Size:  42.7 KB

That inverted "V" could obviously have been produced by a single downward slice, as it most certainly was.
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Old 10-08-2018, 08:45 AM
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I think Jon Smythe (Wickerman) solved the riddle of the "inverted V:s" a long time ago. Before Eddowes´ nosetip was sliced off, a botched attempt was made further up the bridge of the nose. At that stage, the killer could only cut to a certain depth before the blade struck bone. And as he did this, the knife travelled into the cheek flesh on either side, forming the flaps we see - that are more of U:s than V:s, by the way.

Look at post 69 here, and you will see what I mean:

https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1338&page=7

So no scissors.

Last edited by Fisherman : 10-08-2018 at 08:49 AM.
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