Poll: Organs/body parts removed or not?

[El White Chap]

Following claims from a so-called "ripper expert" that the killer didn't remove organs from 3 of the victims (those being Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly), I decided it necessary to gauge general opinion on this subject.

Here is what we have to work with from the official reports;

Chapman murder:
"...whilst from the pelvis, the uterus and its appendages with the upper portion of the vagina and the posterior two thirds of the bladder, had been entirely removed. No trace of these parts could be found..." - Dr. George Bagster Phillips

Eddowes murder:
"The peritoneal lining was cut through on the left side and the left kidney carefully taken out and removed..."
"The womb was cut through horizontally, leaving a stump of three quarters of an inch. The rest of the womb had been taken away with some of the ligaments." - Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown

Kelly murder
"The pericardium was open below and the heart absent..." - Dr. Thomas Bond


Are we to believe that the records we have from those who were there aren't accurate and in fact no organs were removed from Annie, Kate and Mary?

If so, what if any evidence is there to suggest that no organs/trophies were actually taken?

Votes/comments please...

[Trevor Marriott]

Following claims from a so-called "ripper expert" that the killer didn't remove organs from 3 of the victims (those being Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly), I decided it necessary to gauge general opinion on this subject.

Here is what we have to work with from the official reports;

Chapman murder:
"...whilst from the pelvis, the uterus and its appendages with the upper portion of the vagina and the posterior two thirds of the bladder, had been entirely removed. No trace of these parts could be found..." - Dr. George Bagster Phillips

Eddowes murder:
"The peritoneal lining was cut through on the left side and the left kidney carefully taken out and removed..."
"The womb was cut through horizontally, leaving a stump of three quarters of an inch. The rest of the womb had been taken away with some of the ligaments." - Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown

Kelly murder
"The pericardium was open below and the heart absent..." - Dr. Thomas Bond


Are we to believe that the records we have from those who were there aren't accurate and in fact no organs were removed from Annie, Kate and Mary?

If so, what if any evidence is there to suggest that no organs/trophies were actually taken?

Votes/comments please...

I still see you can't answer my question from yesterday but look now for moral support to back up your moronic ramblings

[lynn cates]

ambiguous

Hello EWC. Interesting question.

However, you will notice a large difference between the "careful" removal of the kidney (Kate) and the hack and mangle job on the uterus (Kate)? Perhaps you should have asked separate questions regarding different victims and different organs?

As it is, the wording is too ambiguous for comment.

Cheers.
LC

[El White Chap]

"moronic ramblings"?...the main body of my text was direct quotes from the Dr's/coroners. How disrespectful you are of them.

I'm not obliged to answer your pathetic questions Trev but I shall counter your inaccurate query with a more suitable question and further rational answer.

"how a killer can remove a uterus and a kidney with a long bladed knife with some medical precision from a blood filled abdomen in almost total darkness in 5 minutes."

You give a definitive 5 minutes as the time window, yet we know that timings when it comes to these crimes are approximate due to timekeeping of that period, so that window could have been as much as 10+ minutes. That can be strongly argued as enough time to do all the removing and then some.

Now my turn with the real and relevant question Trev ol' dawg...

Where is there ANY evidence that no organs/body parts were removed?

We're all waiting and if you cannot produce any evidence to backup your wild claims then we shall all consider this matter concluded.

[Observer]

Hello EWC. Interesting question.

However, you will notice a large difference between the "careful" removal of the kidney (Kate) and the hack and mangle job on the uterus (Kate)? Perhaps you should have asked separate questions regarding different victims and different organs?

As it is, the wording is too ambiguous for comment.

Cheers.
LC

Of course it's too ambiguous. It's also a personal vendetta to prove a point. I'll not be voting, I'd urge other poster's not to vote either.

[El White Chap]

Hello EWC. Interesting question.

However, you will notice a large difference between the "careful" removal of the kidney (Kate) and the hack and mangle job on the uterus (Kate)? Perhaps you should have asked separate questions regarding different victims and different organs?

As it is, the wording is too ambiguous for comment.

Cheers.
LC

Hi LC, it's really not that difficult to answer/comment. You either believe organs were taken from the crime scene by the killer, they weren't taken or you're not sure. Let's not make it anymore complex than it needs to be.

You have 3 options, it's simple.

[El White Chap]

Of course it's too ambiguous. It's also a personal vendetta to prove a point. I'll not be voting, I'd urge other poster's not to vote either.

Personal vendetta it is not. This poll was setup to see what others believe following contradictory claims against the reports we have. I have nothing to gain apart from awareness of other opinions.

Whilst I respect your decision to not vote on the poll, trying to influence other to not vote isn't really on.

[lynn cates]

meaning

Hello EWC. Thanks.

I beg to differ. This is like asking, "Did jack kill 'em?" Whom?

So, in your poll, you may be asking:

1. Did ANY of the 10+ ladies killed in the WCM have any organs removed in situ?

2. Did Annie, Kate and "MJK" have organs removed in situ?

3. Did ANY of Annie, Kate and "MJK" have organs removed in situ?

4. Did either Kate and "MJK" have organs removed in situ?

5. Did either Kate and "MJK" have ALL organs removed in situ?

There are dozens of other combinations.

Cheers.
LC

[El White Chap]

Hello EWC. Thanks.

I beg to differ. This is like asking, "Did jack kill 'em?" Whom?

So, in your poll, you may be asking:

1. Did ANY of the 10+ ladies killed in the WCM have any organs removed in situ?

2. Did Annie, Kate and "MJK" have organs removed in situ?

3. Did ANY of Annie, Kate and "MJK" have organs removed in situ?

4. Did either Kate and "MJK" have organs removed in situ?

5. Did either Kate and "MJK" have ALL organs removed in situ?

There are dozens of other combinations.

Cheers.
LC

I'll try and simplify it even further then, no problemo. Here goes...

Do you agree that there missing organs from the WCM victims Annie, Kate and Mary?

Hope that helps.

[lynn cates]

respondeo quod

Hello EWC. Thanks.

I believe that Annie's uterus was missing. I also believe that Kate had both uterus AND kidney removed. These three organs--so far as I know--were not found by the police.

With "MJK" there is some ambiguity. For, although she had some organs extracted, they seem NOT to have been missing.

Cheers.
LC

[El White Chap]

Thanks for answering Lynn and my bad if the poll question wasn't clear enough originally.

With MJK there is still an existing uncertainty and debate as to whether her heart was present in 13 Millers Court or as reported in various sources as missing from the crime scene.

[Sam Flynn]

With "MJK" there is some ambiguity. For, although she had some organs extracted...

... some organs removed, Lynn? Understatement Assuming the throat cut damaged Kelly's thyroid, practically the only organs that escaped the killer's attentions were her eyes, tongue and brain.

[lynn cates]

sum of some

Hello Gareth. Thanks.

Some = "at least one."

Logically, some may imply all.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

This poll was setup to see what others believe following contradictory claims against the reports we have. I have nothing to gain apart from awareness of other opinions.

How about a great big "Told you so" should the poll result in your favour? It's a pointless poll. You would have been better served if you had merely asked the question regarding organ removal.

Personal vendetta it is not..

Looking at your exchanges with Mr Marriot on the subject, I'd say it was a vendetta, and before anyone cites the kettle and pot idiom with regard to my good self, I can only hold my hands up. Yes I'm as vindictive as you are when it comes to posting in this forum, and it's took your recent exchanges with Mr Marriot to make me realise how futile it is. No more for me though No way Hose! I think. We'll see.

Whilst I respect your decision to not vote on the poll, trying to influence other to not vote isn't really on.

By the way do you really think I could influence other posters not to vote in a poll here in Casebook Land?

[Sam Flynn]

Some = "at least one."

True, Lynn, but "some" usually is understood to mean "a few" - to say that Kelly had "at least one" organ removed would be a bit like saying that "at least one" building was damaged in the London Blitz