Proof of Tumblety's Misogyny

[Lechmere]

I have read Mike’s article in the journal of the Whitechapel Society.
He allots a great deal of space to setting out the case for accepting that in the late 19th century misogyny was recognised and that some people used the term ’woman hater’ to refer to men who literally hated women, as opposed to it being a term used to refer to a homosexual.
In this context it really it is a small matter as to whether the specific term ‘woman hater’ is employed or a looser expression such as ‘feelings towards women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme’. This expression essentially conveys the same meaning – and could have been intended to mean the individual so described was a homosexual or someone who literally was very bitter about womankind without actually being a homosexual.

While it undoubtedly is the case that ‘woman hater’ or indeed looser expressions conveying in essence the same meaning, could both refer to either a homosexual or a non-homosexual with a bad attitude towards women, the question is which was the more usual usage of the term?
And in the context of Tumblety which is the more likely?

To make a convincing case that Tumblety was an extreme misogynist (besides being a homosexual) and that this his hatred of women was of such a strong character that he could have engaged in a killing spree – and that whenever such terms as woman hater or other analogous expressions were used with respect to Tumblety it was not coded language for his homosexuality – then we will need some concrete examples from his well recorded life.

What do we have?
The Sheffield and Rotherham Independent of 5th December 1888:
‘who has repeatedly made threats against females of dissolute character’
Where did they get this information from? Well it came from the Daily Telegraph, but where did the Telegraph get it from? From reports in the United States that accompanied Tumblety’s flight there probably.
Let’s drill back – do we actually have anything to substantiate this press claim?
No.
Oh, we have an example via Joe Chetcuti of Tumblety being rude to some women patients, found in the Liverpool Leader of 9th January 1875.
Then we have examples of Tumblety speaking slightingly of women to young men who were his ‘marks’ for seduction.
Guess what? Older homosexuals sometimes do that when attempting to seduce impressionable youngsters. This does not actually imply that the said older homosexual actually ‘hates’ women. He is trying to ‘turn off’ his ‘mark’ from wanting to be with women.

Against we know for a fact that Tumblety had close and friendly and loyal relationships with female landladies. We know that in one of his will’s he wanted to leave money to fallen women.

Are there any concrete examples that show that Tumblety actually displayed real misogynistic hatred for women? Surely there should be. If he was so notorious for it.

I would strongly suggest that the more usual usage of 'woman hater' and similar expressions was as a euphemism for a homosexual. As Tumblety was a homosexual it is likely - in the absence of other strong evidence - that the term when used in connection with him that it was just as a euphemism.

[mklhawley]

Lechmere,

Knowing your anti-Tumblety bias, I am not at all surprised of your conclusion. It's not your argument that is convincing, it's your bias. Sorry.

Re-read Stewart's post. Again, you scream of bias.

[The Good Michael]

Lechmere,

Knowing your anti-Tumblety bias, I am not at all surprised of your conclusion. It's not your argument that is convincing, it's your bias. Sorry.

Re-read Stewart's post. Again, you scream of bias.

Actually, Lechmere is right in seeking out some documented examples. Was he ever convicted of any crimes against women? Was he ever charged with crimes against women? These are absolutely important questions to ask. Without suitable answers, this idea of misogyny shouldn't be part of the case against Tumblety. No doubt he was suspected of the Whitechapel murders, but was that simply because he was a vociferous sneering scoundrel who happened to be keen on men?

Mike

[Lechmere]

Mike
If someone argues against your theory, it is slightly poor to just throw your hands up and say 'oh you are against my theory so I won't bother answering any of your points'. That is what you repeatedly do.
Of course there's no reason why you should answer questions or criticisms but it makes your case look dreadfully weak.
I'm not asking for a legal case where Tumblety was arrested for some act against a woman. I'm asking for an incident where he can be shown conclusively to be a literal woman hater. You have searched and searched and found nothing - so far anyway.

It is a fact on record that Tumblety was referred to as a 'woman hater'.
This can be taken as corroboration for Littlechild's remark about his feelings towards women as 'bitter in the extreme'. But I am afraid this simply does not prove that he was a misogynist.
Particularly when the comment was made in the same sentence that mentions Tumblety's 'Sycopathia Sexualis' - which is unquestionably a reference to his homosexuality.

[mklhawley]

Actually, Lechmere is right in seeking out some documented examples. Was he ever convicted of any crimes against women? Was he ever charged with crimes against women? These are absolutely important questions to ask. Without suitable answers, this idea of misogyny shouldn't be part of the case against Tumblety. No doubt he was suspected of the Whitechapel murders, but was that simply because he was a vociferous sneering scoundrel who happened to be keen on men?

Mike

So, why would being convicted of crimes against women be the only documented evidence to demonstrate he hated women? Here's an example of someone who liked Tumblety. First, from James Maguire, a former valet of Francis Tumblety,

St. Louis Republic, January 17, 1889:
LOUISVILLE, Jan. 16. – Mr. James D. Maguire, at present cashier of a restaurant in this city, believes that Dr. Tumblety is really the Whitechapel fiend. Mr. Maguire acted as Tumblety’s valet for a time in St. Louis and knows the man quite well… “Tumblety is not altogether unworthy of consideration in connection with the Whitechapel crimes. He has always been outspoken, if not notorious as a woman-hater. In all that is known of his life in the past 30 years he has never been mixed up with or made himself the companion of females. His antipathy to fallen women has been especially marked…

This actually leads to the December 1888 comments of someone who knew Francis Tumblety beginning over a quarter of a century prior to the murders. This person was Charles Dunham. Because ripperologists have been under the misconception that Charles Dunham was a pathological liar, his commented have been relegated as untrustworthy, thus, we seem to have forgotten what he stated about Francis Tumblety. I had written two articles on Charles Dunham, demonstrating that he was far from being a pathological liar (the job description for a Civil War double agent was convincing deception, but that was only during the Civil War and the presidential assassination fiasco) AND that lying about Tumblety in 1888 would have been out of character for him. If we put Dunham in a new light, note what he stated about Tumblety,

Rochester Democrat and Republican, 3 December 1888,
Special to the New York World.
LONDON, Dec. 1.
…When to my knowledge of the man’s history, his idiosyncrasies, his revolting practices, his antipathy to women, and especially to fallen women.” …

Some one asked why he had not invited some women to his dinner. His face instantly became as black as a thunder cloud. He had a pack of cards in his hand, but he laid them down and said, almost savagely: 'No, Colonel, I don't know any such cattle, and if I did I would, as your friend, sooner give you a dose of quick poison than take you into such danger.' He then broke into a homily on the sin and folly of dissipation, fiercely denounced all woman and especially fallen women.

How interesting this fits Littlechild's comments to a tee.

Sincerely,
Mike

[mklhawley]

Lechmere, to say this is dreadfully weak is weak. Corroborated evidence speaks volumes.

[mklhawley]

...and his pal McGarry:

When asked about Dr. Tumblety's aversion to women, McGarry said: "He always disliked women very much. He used to say to me: 'Martin, no women for me.' He could not bear to have them near him…” (New York World, Dec 5, 1888)

Sorry Lechmere and Michael, the evidence is quite corroborating to Littlechild's comments that he hated women and wasn't just a lover of men.

[Lechmere]

Mike, I am afraid that no man is a hero to is valet.

I guess you chose not to use Durham in your Whitechapel Society article for a reason – because he is not regarded as a reliable or unbiased source on Tumblety.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by:
‘to say this is dreadfully weak is weak. Corroborated evidence speaks volumes’
We have lots of instances of people saying Tumblety was a ‘woman hater’ or such like – that is well corroborated.
We also have plenty of stories that corroborate each other about Tumblety warning his male associates against having sexual contact with females. Fallen women make a profession out of offering sexual favours to men, so his antipathy towards them can be seen in that context.

This difficulty in establishing genuine examples of misogyny in Tumblety (and in contrast remember those loyal landladies and that will with the bequest for fallen women) is not fatal to Tumblety's candidature as the Ripper but I guess it doesn't help matters.

[mklhawley]

...and then there was his interview:

"You are accused of being a woman-hater. What have you to say to that?" (New York World reporter interviewing Tumblety, January 1889).

Tumblety's response was not to show he wasn't a lover of men, it was proof that he had a good relationship with women and didn't hate them. It had nothing to do with his relationship with men.

[mklhawley]

The Liverpool Leader, January 9, 1875, reported on the recent appearance of a ‘doctor’ setting up shop within their community, who was advertising miraculous cures of Liverpool citizens, but with some investigative journalism, the paper believed they had exposed a fraud. Their investigation of the doctor, who was none other than Francis Tumblety, apparently revealed not only a misogynist, but a violent misogynist,

There comes to us a tale of a decent woman from the Isle of Man who sought his advice respecting a bad leg. He told her it was due to the immorality of her parents, but would cure it for 3 pounds. This she declined, whereon he [Tumblety] ordered her to get out legs and all or else he would kick her out! Other women young an unmarried, have fled in alarm from his premises, and say his language and conduct suggested danger.

Now, this article predates the Ripper murders, so one cannot say the papers were adding suggestive comments to hint at his Ripper guilt. Notice how 'other women' clearly suggests his hatred to the gender and not just one person.

Sorry Lechmere and Michael. More corroborating evidence. Do you still think it's dreadfully weak?

[mklhawley]

Let me add more to what McGarry stated:

Martin McGarry hung with Tumblety in 1882. In true misogynist fashion, Tumblety was notorious for warning these young men about women,
“He never failed to warn his correspondent [young Lyons] against lewd women, and in doing it used the most shocking language.” (Grey River Argus, Feb 25, 1889)
When asked about Dr. Tumblety's aversion to women, McGarry said: "He always disliked women very much. He used to say to me: 'Martin, no women for me.' He could not bear to have them near him. He thought all women were impostors, and he often said that all the trouble in this world was caused by women." (New York World, Dec 5, 1888)

[mklhawley]

The Dracula Secrets: Jack the Ripper and the Darkest Sources of Bram Stoker, Storey reveals twenty new letters written by Tumblety to Caine. One of them gives a clue as to why he had such a hatred of women, especially prostitutes…

"The Chinamen are as nasty as Locust, they devour everything they come across, rats and cats, and all sorts of decomposed vegetable matter, they are a species of the Digger Indian. Grass hopper is a luxury which they partake with delight. This is not all, the Chinese that are now being landed on the Pacific shelf are of the lowest order. In morals and obscenity they are far below those of our most degraded prostitutes. Their women are bought and sold, for the usual purposes and they are used to decoy youths of the most tender age, into these dens, for the purpose of exhibiting their nude and disgusting person to the hitherto innocent youths of the cities."

Corroborating his hatred for 'fallen women'. Hmmm. Corroboration. Still dreadfully weak?

[mklhawley]

Your premise that if Tumblety was JTR, it was because of his hatred of women, is wrong. Using this incorrect premise you say, "since he really didn't hate women, he's not JTR." You're barking up the wrong tree. Yes, he absolutely hated women, but if he was JTR, that's not the primary reason for murdering them. Your incorrect premise promotes your bias.

[mklhawley]

I guess you chose not to use Durham in your Whitechapel Society article for a reason – because he is not regarded as a reliable or unbiased source on Tumblety.

Oh, I thought you were a person only guided by the evidence. Do you have evidence that this is why I did not use Dunham's comments? That is farthest from the truth. So, why did you state this? Was it because you are trying to pursuade the reader based upon something other than evidence?

[mklhawley]

Let me add more to what McGarry stated:

Martin McGarry hung with Tumblety in 1882. In true misogynist fashion, Tumblety was notorious for warning these young men about women,
“He never failed to warn his correspondent [young Lyons] against lewd women, and in doing it used the most shocking language.” (Grey River Argus, Feb 25, 1889)


When asked about Dr. Tumblety's aversion to women, McGarry said: "He always disliked women very much. He used to say to me: 'Martin, no women for me.' He could not bear to have them near him. He thought all women were impostors, and he often said that all the trouble in this world was caused by women." (New York World, Dec 5, 1888)

I'm sorry, this is actually two separate sources, young Lyons AND McGarry.

Even more corroboration.