Was Tumblety Proven Innocent of the Whitechapel Murders?

[Phil H]

John,

You wrote:

But what if he named Gull, or Lewis Carroll or Joseph Merrick? knowing what we know about these individuals would we give his suspicions about them any credence? No we wouldn't.

But surely we WOULD, if a policeman at the time had mentioned their name.

It is different for a modern "researcher"/author/pundit to pluck a name from the air and say "I have a theory", and for an individual to be mentioned in the same breath as the case by those actually involved.

Of course, each copper in th late 1800s would have had his own theory and heard tittle-tattle from those more actively/closely involved with the Whitechapel case, but for us to get an insight into that is surely rather like being in the Scotland Yard locker-room at the end of the day and hearing them chat.

Yes, at the end of the day there may be no more to Tumblety than there is to Ostrog - but we acannot just discard Ostrog (though MacN was not there in 1888) and IMHO we should not dicard Tumblety either.

Phil

[mklhawley]

"So your supposition is that everyone believes that no tall people commit crimes? Since these have nothing to do with the Whitechapel murders they are really a moot point. Of course taller people commit crimes, as do dwarves, but no giants or dwarves were suspected of being JtR. Your articles do not even give a height estimation so the victims/eyewitnesses could've considered an average size man as being tall if they themselves were of short stature. Scotland Yard took notice of any case that involved stabbing and such while this was going on so of course they would come across people who are above average height committing crimes."

John,

You've missed my point entirely as evidenced by suggesting a supposition such as this. Read it a couple of times. To suggest that any stabbing incident in Whitechapel not part of the C5 murders as irrelevant to the case is ludicrous. Both of these articles detail two separate incidents that Scotland Yard considered part of the Whitechapel investigation and they were significant enough for the press to publish them. Both have a potential suspect considered tall, and to not understand that “tall” in these articles means taller than the average male is quite the stretch of logic.

By your responses, I am not surprised you do not consider Tumblety as a serious JTR suspect. Who you consider a serious suspect is less important than who Scotland Yard considered. Inspector Anderson contacted San Francisco’s Chief of Police for handwriting samples of Tumblety’s in November 1888 soon after the last murder, and on the same day he contacted Brooklyn’s Chief of Police for information on Tumblety. Did Scotland Yard go to such an extent as to have none other than Inspector Anderson make inquiries on every one of the hundreds of minor suspects as he did with Tumblety? You are claiming Tumblety was considered a minor suspect, but in order to support this you need to explain away why Inspector Anderson got personally involved. Maybe he had lots of time on his hands.

Claiming that you are back to square one is clearly a case of assimilation vs. accommodation. Look it up.

Sincerely,

Mike

[John Winsett]

Mike
I never said he was a minor suspect, just that he was on the same level as some of the others. As I said he is a good contemporary suspect and warrants more investigation but at this point there is no more evidence against him then any other and more reason to exclude him than others.

On your comments concerning Scotland Yard. If SY considered Tumblety a high priority suspect in the murders why did they keep it to themselves? No one mentions him except Littlechild. Let me repeat that. No one names Tumblety as a suspect except Littlechild! Keep in mind he was probably being watched by SY for reasons other than the murders. The police were still looking at doctors as suspects and Tumblety flees to the states so I can see why they want to know more about him, especially if he left the luggage behind with the pornography and checkbook and was arrested for obscene acts. But remember Andrews was already in Canada so it's not so outrageous to have him truck down to New York to check a suspect out.

It's possible he was the Ripper, but it's more likely he was thrown into the fray by the convoluted memories of Littlechild. Still it does make things more interesting doesn't it?

Excellent Discussion!
John

[mklhawley]

Good points John. In the Casebook Examiner, Roger Palmer has published two parts of a three part article (the last part comes out this summer) that deal with some of your points. Regardless if you accept his conclusions, it's a great read, and he does a much better job of explaining things than I do.

Take care,

Mike

[John Winsett]

I'll check it out. Thanks for the info. Your explanations are fine. I think mine are the ones that need work. Thanks again.

John

[caz]

We should be very careful in suspecting Tumblety. Not that he isn't a good contemporary suspect, but he is not any better then Chapman, and a worst suspect then Druitt. He's still worth investigating but until they find his wombs and his brass rings we can list him right next to Maybrick for the time being.

Oh no we can't, John. Maybrick isn't even a legitimate suspect as things stand, let alone 'a good contemporary' one.

You'd have to show that Littlechild was lying or seriously mistaken when happily steering Sims in the Tumblety direction. If Dr T was indeed 'amongst the suspects', just as Littlechild claimed, it puts him head and shoulders above Maybrick in stature - literally as well as figuratively.

What is lacking is the reasoning behind suspecting Dr T in the first place. With Maybrick all we have (and arguably all we will ever have) is some unknown person with his/her own reasons for turning him into Jack in their dodgy 'diary'.

With Tumblety I have a horrid feeling that it could boil down to not much more than his reputation as a "muff dodger" - the 2010 equivalent of "woman hater". Being an Irish American in London, with a large dossier, was undoubtedly a bonus back in 1888.

None of it at present indicates a penchant for ripping up Whitechapel unfortunates. If anything his bag was ripping off the gullible.

But who knows what may yet be discovered about the dodgy doc?

Love,

Caz
X

[John Winsett]

Oh no we can't, John. Maybrick isn't even a legitimate suspect as things stand, let alone 'a good contemporary' one.

You'd have to show that Littlechild was lying or seriously mistaken when happily steering Sims in the Tumblety direction. If Dr T was indeed 'amongst the suspects', just as Littlechild claimed, it puts him head and shoulders above Maybrick in stature - literally as well as figuratively.

What is lacking is the reasoning behind suspecting Dr T in the first place. With Maybrick all we have (and arguably all we will ever have) is some unknown person with his/her own reasons for turning him into Jack in their dodgy 'diary'.

With Tumblety I have a horrid feeling that it could boil down to not much more than his reputation as a "muff dodger" - the 2010 equivalent of "woman hater". Being an Irish American in London, with a large dossier, was undoubtedly a bonus back in 1888.

None of it at present indicates a penchant for ripping up Whitechapel unfortunates. If anything his bag was ripping off the gullible.

But who knows what may yet be discovered about the dodgy doc?

Love,

Caz
X

Agreed. Good point.