Was Tumblety Proven Innocent of the Whitechapel Murders?

[GregBaron]

Photo........?

Hey y'all, I just read in the inaugural casebook examiner issue that a photo of Tumblety had been discovered? Is this true and if so does anyone have a copy of it? It'd be nice to get a real view of the wacko's face......



Greg

[GregBaron]

Nevermind.........

I think I misinterpreted the sentence in question. I believe it refers to the Nichols photo and simply the discovery of Tumblety........not also his photo.......darn..............foiled by grammar again...........

Greg

[mklhawley]

Hi guys,

What is absolutely clear is that Dr. T lived a double life; what he wanted the public to see in order to assist in his business (a credible doctor) and what his hidden impulses led him to. To not understand why Dr. T would stay in Whitechapel is to not understand Dr. T's double life. Dr. T himself admitted being in Whitechapel during the murders during his interview. Did he merely do a day trip to Whitechapel, thus, not sleep there? I think not, as evidenced by his late evening exploits with those men.

Take care,

Mike

[RealTyche]

Tumblety can be safely ruled out as a serious suspect in the Whitechapel murders. Tumblety was not only American, he was also six foot two inches tall. His accent and height would have made him stand out like a neon lightbulb.

Most of the whitnesses who may have seen the murderer, notably Mrs. Long and Hutichnson, all describe a man of 'medium' height, which would have been about five foot five in 1888. Mrs. Long's suspect, clearly the killer of Annie Chapman, described him as being only " ' a little taller'" than the five foot tall Chapman.

[mklhawley]

Tumblety can be safely ruled out as a serious suspect in the Whitechapel murders. Tumblety was not only American, he was also six foot two inches tall. His accent and height would have made him stand out like a neon lightbulb.

Most of the whitnesses who may have seen the murderer, notably Mrs. Long and Hutichnson, all describe a man of 'medium' height, which would have been about five foot five in 1888. Mrs. Long's suspect, clearly the killer of Annie Chapman, described him as being only " ' a little taller'" than the five foot tall Chapman.

Hi RealTyche,

The tiger can be safely ruled out as the killer of those people in India because it is 500 pounds and brilliantly colored. It would stick out like a neon lightbulb. This truly is not sarcasm, but a point that the environment and MO is the key. As per Rumbelow, Whitechapel was a very dark place at night with lots of nooks and cranies. In Tumblety's own words, he dressed as to not bring attention to himself. My previous post points to Whitechapel authorities taking seriously a tall American.

Your assumption with the witnesses is that they actually saw JTR, which may or may not be the case.

Sincerely,

Mike

[mklhawley]

...alsoc notice what the reported, who interviewed Tumblety soon after he came back from Whitechapel, said about his accent: "Dr. Tumblety talks in a quick, nervous fashion, with a decidedly English accent, and at times, when describing his treatment by the English police, he would get up from his chair and walk rapidly around the room until he became calm.”

Point: He did not stick out like a neon light.

Sincerely,

Mike

[mklhawley]

Please excuse the typos!

[bkohatl]

Tumblety and Mary Jane Kelly

The most telling murder to me is Mary Jane Kelly. No one who has ever seen her room could believe anything other than the murderer was crazy. I think that is the best evidence against Aaron Kosminski and Montague Druitt. Montague seems to have been a modest quiet man leading a quiet modest life. Getting fired from Mr. Valentine's School jeopardized all that. If we could only more information about that, then we might know why he commited suicide.
But Kosminski, seems the most likely candidate. He committment to a mental institution fits neatly with Jack's disappearance.
Tumblety makes an interesting candidate, but he apparently survive by far too many years to be the victim of progressive insanity as Aaron apparently was.

[John Winsett]

Tumblety was not JTR. He does not match any of the accepted descriptions. He does not match Hutchinson's made up description. He was arrested for indecent acts not murder. He was suspected but so were hundreds of others. His age alone and his size rule him out as a suspect. His homosexuality rules him out as a suspect. His gigantic moustache rules him out. It was indirectly proven that he had this long moustache in SE companion book. A very good book by the way. No other policeman has suggested Tumblety was a suspect except for Littlechild. Tumblety's supposed hatred for women would have made him avoid them at all costs, not associate with them.

[mklhawley]

Tumblety was not JTR. He does not match any of the accepted descriptions. He does not match Hutchinson's made up description. He was arrested for indecent acts not murder. He was suspected but so were hundreds of others. His age alone and his size rule him out as a suspect. His homosexuality rules him out as a suspect. His gigantic moustache rules him out. It was indirectly proven that he had this long moustache in SE companion book. A very good book by the way. No other policeman has suggested Tumblety was a suspect except for Littlechild. Tumblety's supposed hatred for women would have made him avoid them at all costs, not associate with them.

hmmm... so many misconceptions. It is clear you have read just one biased source, but it looks like you enjoyed it. Now, it's time to read a little more. I would start with the comments below.


Argument 1: Tumblety was too much of a flamboyant fame-seeking publicity hound to be JTR. He would ultimately have wanted to take credit for being the world’s famous serial killer.
Even if he was a publicity hound, it’s quite common for people to lead two separate lives (an acceptable public life and a seedy private life). We know Tumblety actually did lead two separate lives because of his arrest for having multiple homosexual Whitechapel encounters. Yet, I believe this is a serious misconception. Many see him as a harmless eccentric guy with the motivation to fit in with the rich and famous. On the contrary, Tumblety’s actions suggest he was the poster child for an aggressive narcissist. After Corey123 had made convincing arguments to show JTR was the worst kind of narcissist, it hit me that Tumblety shared some of these traits. Notice the Hare Psychopathy checklist for an aggressive narcissist: Glibness/superficial charm, Grandiose sense of self-worth, Pathological lying, Cunning/manipulative, Lack of remorse or guilt, Shallow affect (expressing emotions deceptively), Callous/lack of empathy, Failure to accept responsibility for own actions. Each one is classic Tumblety. His flamboyance was merely a tool for manipulation in order to attain his true desire: personal financial gain. He was a narcissistic scam artist employing effective sales and marketing techniques in order to manipulate a gullible public. In an era of slow mass communication, Tumblety would enter a new city in full glamour as if he were on a parade. There are numerous newspaper articles discussing this and even discussing the wealth he acquired. Even his parties were attempts to gain credibility with the more fortunate crowds in order to reinforce his money making practice. Once the public finally learned about his true background from better-informed authorities or once his patients started getting sick and even dying (evidence of no remorse), he merely pulled up his stakes and took his freshly earned money and business to a new city (or country).

Argument 2: Tumblety was nearly 6’ tall and had a huge mustache, so he would have been too conspicuous in the Whitechapel streets.
If Tumblety were JTR, do you really think it would be impossible for him to be inconspicuous? He certainly felt inconspicuous enough to pursue his homosexual activities with multiple young men in the Whitechapel district in November 1888 when authorities were at the height of combing the streets for JTR.

Keep in mind; the majestic tiger with its massive body and flamboyant colors has an MO of stealth and stalking, not unlike Jack the Ripper. Why are 500 – 800 pound brightly colored tigers so good at surprising their prey? They effectively use the environment. According to Donald Rumbelow, the streets of Whitechapel were very dark with multiple nooks and crannies. Although a picture of Tumblety has his mustache displayed out, the photograph of him in uniform has his mustache following the contour of his face and neck. This could easily fit into a cloak. A 5 foot 11 inch man is no different than a 5 foot 8-inch man at night and in the shadows, especially if he dresses down. Even in Tumblety’s interview in January 1889, he admits to dressing inconspicuously, “I was not dressed in a way to attract attention…”

Argument 3: Tumblety is too old to be a credible JTR suspect.
Remember, Tumblety was arrested twice for violent homosexual encounters in November 1888 with no less than four men. I’m sure the authorities who arrested him at the time for aggressive illegal sexual activities would not consider him too old to handle middle-aged female prostitutes (one at a time). Tumblety had certainly enough mojo to pursue multiple young men while in his fifties. Newspapers continued to characterize him as a powerfully built man. Keep in mind; the oldest known serial killer was a full 20 years older than Tumblety was at the time of the Whitechapel murders. It is also interesting to note that the JTR victims were in their forties; easier targets than younger prostitutes. Didn’t the youthful Ted Bundy likewise hunt youthful victims, so it is not out of the question that an older JTR would prefer older prostitutes?

Argument 4: There is no concrete evidence that Scotland Yard considered Tumblety a serious suspect.
To me, Evans & Gainey’s arguments are convincing enough to answer this argument, but even if you do not, absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. This is especially true with such a cold case as JTR where concrete physical evidence is all but absent. According to Donald Rumbelow, Scotland Yard officials were directed to exclude the press on the JTR investigation entirely. In view of this, how can one conclude Tumblety’d JTR suspect status by what Scotland Yard said or what they told the press? No wonder the UK press was so silent about Tumblety. With this kind of policy, in order to discover their true motives, one should not consider what Scotland Yard said but consider what they did. They certainly followed Tumblety to the U.S., and in following known Scotland Yard policy, claimed he was not being investigated for the Whitechapel murders.
Tumblety himself admitted to a reporter in January 1889 that Whitechapel authorities not only arrested him for the Whitechapel murders but also charged him with the murders. Tumblety stated, “I happened to be there when these Whitechapel murders…I was not dressed in a way to attract attention… I had simply been guilty of wearing a slouch hat, and for that I was charged with a series of the most horrible crimes ever recorded.” I believe it is foolhardy to reject Tumblety’s truthfulness in this particular part of the interview. He had nothing to gain by admitting to this, especially in light of his chosen profession. Tumblety would be more convincing to begin with facts already known to the public (being arrested and charged in connection with his type of hat), and then twist the story from there into a plausible yet deceptive story.
Interestingly, Tumblety claimed he was going to prepare a pamphlet to refute all charges against him, which never happened. This is reminiscent of what OJ Simpson claimed and then failed to do (recall that he claimed he was going to search tirelessly for the true killers on Nicole Brown Simpson once he was found innocent).

[add on] This argument needs some post-Palmer updates.

Argument 5: Tumblety does not fit the eyewitness testimonies.
Point one is that it certainly could be true that eyewitnesses were describing the wrong man, just as inspector Aberline suggested. Point two brings up a second revelation, which requires a change in Jack the Ripper’s MO. If the From Hell letter did come from JTR, recall how he signed it, “Catch me when you can.” This points to a killer proud of how he can mutilate a body on the public streets and then easily elude authorities. Not only does he have power over these women, he had power over a frightened public and a baffled police force. Would it not be more effective for a serial killer to focus just as much upon the set up to the attack as the attack itself? If I were JTR, I would certainly draw less attention to myself by not being seen with the prostitute in public at all. I would leisurely follow a selected prostitute on the crowded Whitechapel streets, wait for a John to solicit her, follow the two of them to an obviously private place, watch their sexual encounter, ensure no one else was around, and then once the John left the area, approach the prostitute for the attack whether it be in an ally, a court, or in an apartment. This would conveniently ensure false eyewitness testimony as an effective method of eluding the authorities in the future. While the authorities are looking for a younger, shorter, foreign guy, the taller, older JTR would be better able to roam the streets.
If JTR’s MO was to use a John to solicit his victim, then this opens up the possibility that Tumblety may have murdered Carrie Brown in New York City on April 23/24, 1891, as well. The eyewitness testimony may merely be describing the John and not the killer. Why I bring this up again is because of the amazing coincidence that not only was he in Whitechapel during murders, his residence was walking distance to Carrie Brown’s murder site in 1891 (another ripper-style murder)!
Some consider a stumbling block for Tumblety being Brown’s murderer is the robbery of him in Hot Springs, Arkansas, on “Friday night” (according to The Brooklyn Eagle), which would make it April 17. This is six full days prior to Brown’s murder, and a train ride back home to NYC was only a 2- or 3-day ride. It doesn’t seem too out of the question for Tumblety to quickly come back to NYC to get more cash, since he lost it all in Hot Springs. He could even have been so irritated at losing his precious hard-earned cash that this narcissist had to relieve himself by settling some scores with NYC authorities claiming JTR could never elude them (OK, this one is stretch, but hey, I’m trying to think out of the box).

Argument 6: There is no direct evidence of Tumblety being a violent woman hater and collector of uterus specimens.
To elaborate, the eyewitness testimony of Colonel Dunham is the only direct eyewitness evidence that Tumblety had an extensive collection of uterus specimens and that he was also a woman hater. Since Dunham was a known liar and cheat, these two claims are now suspect, and should not be used. Tumblety no longer has a motive for the JTR killings, thus he is no longer a viable suspect.
This argument impresses me, but I have a few points. I do agree that Colonel Dunham spun a tail about Tumblety in December 1888 for personal reasons, especially since Tumblety was in all of the U.S. papers at the time as a major Ripper suspect. I do not agree, however, to entirely reject these two claims. In order for Dunham to get the biggest public reaction from this deceptive interview, why not embellish upon what Tumblety has previously been accused of. My contention is that the two claims, especially the woman hater claim, should not be ignored since Scotland Yard mostly likely considered them. Keep in mind; Littlechild in his letter stated, “…but his feelings towards women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme, a fact on record.”
Regardless, I believe this argument is missing the point. The argument is challenging a possible motive for Tumblety to murder. Being a woman-hater is only one motive that fits a narcissistic Tumblety. According to the experts, the following are general motives for serial killers: visionary (voices told me to do it), mission-oriented (hate men, women, prostitutes, etc.), hedonistic (lust, for the thrill, for comfort/profit), and power. Apparently, all known serial killers have one thing in common, child abuse and/or neglect. Remember, Tumblety was selling pornographic material on the locks as a youth. This type of upbringing screams of parental neglect and even possible physical/sexual abuse.


Sincerely,

Mike

[mklhawley]

Here is a response I posted about homosexuality and serial killers.

Here's a quote from a psychologist:
"Homosexual serial killers have most frequently chosen young boys or gay men as their victims, although some have victimized females as well. Most of the killers have raped their victims either before or after killing them, although in some cases they have killed after consensual homosexual sex. There have been heterosexual serial killers who have targeted gay victims (e.g., Colin Ireland)"

Here's a couple of points, in any other field when there are few in number, patterns are statistically insignificant, and just might create illusions of truth. As I've read, we don't really know a great number of homosexual serial killers, especially ones that have the same personality as Tumblety. I do agree there is a tendancy, but as the above expert points out, not always. Tumblety certainly fits all of the agressive narcissist elements, so it would not be a far fetched idea that he would chose a differnent motive.


My point is your comment thoroughly rejects the idea that a homosexual would target anyone but men. This is simply not the case. If you read the above comments you'll see that it just depends upon his/her motive as a serial killer.

Sincerely,

Mike

[mklhawley]

I am going to repeat argument 2 about rejecting Tumblety because he had a big mustache. I really do not get this one, so read again.


Argument 2: Tumblety was nearly 6’ tall and had a huge mustache, so he would have been too conspicuous in the Whitechapel streets.
If Tumblety were JTR, do you really think it would be impossible for him to be inconspicuous? He certainly felt inconspicuous enough to pursue his homosexual activities with multiple young men in the Whitechapel district in November 1888 when authorities were at the height of combing the streets for JTR.

Keep in mind; the majestic tiger with its massive body and flamboyant colors has an MO of stealth and stalking, not unlike Jack the Ripper. Why are 500 – 800 pound brightly colored tigers so good at surprising their prey? They effectively use the environment. According to Donald Rumbelow, the streets of Whitechapel were very dark with multiple nooks and crannies. Although a picture of Tumblety has his mustache displayed out, the photograph of him in uniform has his mustache following the contour of his face and neck. This could easily fit into a cloak. A 5 foot 11 inch man is no different than a 5 foot 8-inch man at night and in the shadows, especially if he dresses down. Even in Tumblety’s interview in January 1889, he admits to dressing inconspicuously, “I was not dressed in a way to attract attention…”

Sincerely,

Mike

[John Winsett]

Here is a response I posted about homosexuality and serial killers.

Here's a quote from a psychologist:
"Homosexual serial killers have most frequently chosen young boys or gay men as their victims, although some have victimized females as well. Most of the killers have raped their victims either before or after killing them, although in some cases they have killed after consensual homosexual sex. There have been heterosexual serial killers who have targeted gay victims (e.g., Colin Ireland)"

Here's a couple of points, in any other field when there are few in number, patterns are statistically insignificant, and just might create illusions of truth. As I've read, we don't really know a great number of homosexual serial killers, especially ones that have the same personality as Tumblety. I do agree there is a tendancy, but as the above expert points out, not always. Tumblety certainly fits all of the agressive narcissist elements, so it would not be a far fetched idea that he would chose a differnent motive.


My point is your comment thoroughly rejects the idea that a homosexual would target anyone but men. This is simply not the case. If you read the above comments you'll see that it just depends upon his/her motive as a serial killer.

Sincerely,

Mike

I'm glad you broke these up.
we don't really know a great number of homosexual serial killers, especially ones that have the same personality as Tumblety
Actually most of the extremely violent SK's have been gay;John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Wayne Williams, Andrew Cunan. It is not as uncommon as the above comments try to portray. And again they didn't have the personality of Tumblety but all with the exception of Dahmer were extremely narcissitic.
A hetrosexual who kills gays is not as unusual either. That would be centered around racism and be considered a hate crime more than a sexually charged crime. Any redneck or KKK member in the US can attest to this.
What you don't see as far as I know is a homosexual male kill females in a serial killer fashion. Of course I'm sure there have been some homosexuals that have killed women as well as lesbians that have killed men. Aileen Wuornos comes to mind.
Very few killers outside of movies are never as flamboyant as Tumblety was in real life. He was more like Liberace flamboyant then most men of that day and apparently a clothes horse.
I'm not a psychologist and wouldn't claim to be. Since this is really all speculation at best I can say I don't see a narcissist like Tumblety even wanting to associate or visit the lower class of Whitechapel much less hang around and kill 4pence whores for sport.

[John Winsett]

I am going to repeat argument 2 about rejecting Tumblety because he had a big mustache. I really do not get this one, so read again.


Argument 2: Tumblety was nearly 6’ tall and had a huge mustache, so he would have been too conspicuous in the Whitechapel streets.
If Tumblety were JTR, do you really think it would be impossible for him to be inconspicuous? He certainly felt inconspicuous enough to pursue his homosexual activities with multiple young men in the Whitechapel district in November 1888 when authorities were at the height of combing the streets for JTR.

Keep in mind; the majestic tiger with its massive body and flamboyant colors has an MO of stealth and stalking, not unlike Jack the Ripper. Why are 500 – 800 pound brightly colored tigers so good at surprising their prey? They effectively use the environment. According to Donald Rumbelow, the streets of Whitechapel were very dark with multiple nooks and crannies. Although a picture of Tumblety has his mustache displayed out, the photograph of him in uniform has his mustache following the contour of his face and neck. This could easily fit into a cloak. A 5 foot 11 inch man is no different than a 5 foot 8-inch man at night and in the shadows, especially if he dresses down. Even in Tumblety’s interview in January 1889, he admits to dressing inconspicuously, “I was not dressed in a way to attract attention…”

Sincerely,

Mike

The picture of Tumblety with the uniform and Keiser Wheilhem hat was taken when he was very young. The one on this website was taken when he was much older and he wore it in the style of the day. In no description that I see has anyone ever described a cloak. Not even Hutchinson. He did describe a much younger man then tumblety. And Tumblety did look late 50's agewise.
The moustache and his size do matter. Now maybe he could surpress the 'stache but when the average male height in WC is 5'7 he would not be able to hide 5 inches plus. Just not possible.
Another reason the moustache is important is that it doesn't match any of the eyewitness descriptions. And we know he wore it long and waxed because the reports in the american papers at the time of his return describe him as a large man with a long, waxed moustache.
As for the tiger example it doesn't apply. A tiger never surprises prey up close, it sneaks up so far and then chases until the prey is tired out or if the tiger can out run it. Most of the time the tiger's prey gets away because the tiger refuses to wear itself out.
So you've made excellent points but they cannot be applied logically, nor can mine but at least if we were going on a basic average human level I think I'm a little closer.

[Jonathan H]

To Mike

Very, very well argued, mate.

Not one bit of entropic theorizing that I can see.

I would simply add that many of these modern objections to Tumblety as 'Jack' would have been known to Scotland Yard at the time yet, rightly or wrongly, he was not dismissed as a colourful footnote.

That is because a major policeman from that era, J G Littlechild -- with no known axe to grind about the Ripper, and thus nothing to prove -- revealed that Tumblety was the major 1888 suspect behind the 'Drowned Doctor' Edwardian paradigm.

That this suspect had certainly never been cleared, to his knowledge, of the Whitechaple murders.

The weakness of the Littlechild Letter is that it is private and unofficial; he can write what he bloody likes and never be held accountable.

More realistically, Littlechild is somewhat warily writing to his class superior with an unwelcome scoop: the retired cop seems to think this upper class worthie and 'criminologist' is making a chump out of himself!

That Sims has been misled by somebody, perhaps by that insufferable egomaniac Anderson, who fed some nonsense to Major Griffiths -- the public locus of the 'Drowned Doctor' mythos.

Notice that Littlechild does not write that the flamboyant Irish-American is a ludicrous suspect, put forward perhaps by Anderson to Griffiths in grabled form.

Instead he writes that Tumblety WAS a ' very likely' one, but that the details that Sims is publicly cloaking this major suspect in [eg that he was English and that Scotland Yard just missed arresting him] are rubbish, and that the truth is much more embarrassing for CID.