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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #31  
Old 07-04-2018, 02:45 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Hi,
Just something else regarding the Eddowes murder that I thought about some years back, if the GSG was written by the ripper, and the line referring to " blamed for nothing"
Well this is what she said was her name when originally taken in to Bishopsgate Police Station.....only the Police officers on duty would have known that.

Regards
That's an interesting suggestion spyglass, and only they would know her release time. If she had arranged a meeting with someone, for example, then her incarceration and the unknown time of release would have put a big kink in her plans. Unless either she was released in time to make that meeting, or that the person waiting was informed about her whereabouts and delay.

What if she was released so that the police could follow her, where she went and who she was to meet, and maybe cordon off that area to ensure that this person couldn't evade them when leaving. The closest people to the actual scene of the crime at the time it occurred were all current or ex police. Pearce, Morris, Harvey, Watkins, Marriott, Halse, Outram...and the crime seems to have occurred when one officer should have been visually checking that court from one point and another entering the court from another.
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  #32  
Old 07-10-2018, 09:06 AM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
The closest people to the actual scene of the crime at the time it occurred were all current or ex police. Pearce, Morris, Harvey, Watkins, Marriott, Halse, Outram...and the crime seems to have occurred when one officer should have been visually checking that court from one point and another entering the court from another.
This looks to me like a circular argument. The closest people to the scene of the crime were only "all" police officers if an assumption is made that the killer was one of them.
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  #33  
Old 07-11-2018, 03:45 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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This looks to me like a circular argument. The closest people to the scene of the crime were only "all" police officers if an assumption is made that the killer was one of them.
I'm actually of the belief that the proximity of all those policemen, perhaps excluding Morris, had more to do with creating a net. I didn't intend to infer that one of them must have been the murderer at all. I did intend to infer that they expected an attack on Kate that night, which might be a result of intelligence that she intended to name a killer she believed did the prior murders. Something that may or may not have been true, she may have thought of someone who was guilty of crimes but not the ones she imagined.

Maybe someone Irish, which makes Mitre Square an interesting choice...I believe it was at one time used by self rule factions?
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  #34  
Old 07-17-2018, 12:19 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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I'm actually of the belief that the proximity of all those policemen, perhaps excluding Morris, had more to do with creating a net. I didn't intend to infer that one of them must have been the murderer at all. I did intend to infer that they expected an attack on Kate that night, which might be a result of intelligence that she intended to name a killer she believed did the prior murders. Something that may or may not have been true, she may have thought of someone who was guilty of crimes but not the ones she imagined.

Maybe someone Irish, which makes Mitre Square an interesting choice...I believe it was at one time used by self rule factions?
I've clearly mistaken your meaning then, Michael. Apologies.

If she intended to name a killer though, why would she not do it before leaving the police station? She'd been out of London hopping for a while, so perhaps may have simply had knowledge that the man referred to in the press as Leather Apron was John Pizer?
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  #35  
Old 07-19-2018, 10:38 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Originally Posted by spyglass View Post
Hi,
Just something else regarding the Eddowes murder that I thought about some years back, if the GSG was written by the ripper, and the line referring to " blamed for nothing"
Well this is what she said was her name when originally taken in to Bishopsgate Police Station.....only the Police officers on duty would have known that.

Regards
or a spectator to her arrest. Perhaps someone witnessed the incident and waited for her to be released. Could be a policeman also who followed her. The nothing makes a lot more sense when you apply that meaning and it also narrows down the suspect pool.
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  #36  
Old 07-24-2018, 04:47 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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I've clearly mistaken your meaning then, Michael. Apologies.

If she intended to name a killer though, why would she not do it before leaving the police station? She'd been out of London hopping for a while, so perhaps may have simply had knowledge that the man referred to in the press as Leather Apron was John Pizer?
I think its because her information held no monetary value, or at least none she was willing to settle for, after she gave it to the Police. She might have been negotiating for her silence that afternoon and later that night outside the square.

Interesting you mentioned Pizer, because Ive never believed that story, and I found the venue in which it was addressed was almost certainly used just to calm the public.
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  #37  
Old 09-21-2018, 09:02 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Originally Posted by spyglass View Post
Hi,
Just something else regarding the Eddowes murder that I thought about some years back, if the GSG was written by the ripper, and the line referring to " blamed for nothing"
Well this is what she said was her name when originally taken in to Bishopsgate Police Station.....only the Police officers on duty would have known that.

Regards
At that time a crowd outside No. 29 in the High Street attracted the attention of PC Louis Robinson 931. Pushing his way to its centre he found a woman lying drunk on the pavement. The constable picked her up and leaned her against the shutters of No. 29 but she slipped sideways. Then, summoning PC George Simmonds 959 to his assistance, he managed to get her to Bishopsgate Street Police Station. James Byfield, the station sergeant, remembered the woman being brought in, supported between two constables, at about 8.45. She smelt strongly of drink. When they enquired her name she replied: ‘Nothing.’

Sugden, Philip. The Complete History of Jack the Ripper (Kindle Locations 5113-5117). Little, Brown Book Group.

Near a bloody portion of her apron is the GSG.

"The Juwes [sic] are the men that will not be blamed for nothing."

or whatever version but "blamed for nothing" is in them all.

If there is a connection then maybe for the time period JtR went 'missing' between the murder and the GSG apron dump he just went back to Bishopsgate Street Police Station before moving on.

Which means he could be one of those officers there.
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  #38  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:08 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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If there is a connection then maybe for the time period JtR went 'missing' between the murder and the GSG apron dump he just went back to Bishopsgate Street Police Station before moving on.
Any explanation for what he did with the piece of blood and faeces-stained apron in the meantime? (Always assuming that Long had actually checked the stairwell on his previous circuit and there was actually any significant time period between the murder and the off-loading of the apron piece).

Quote:
Which means he could be one of those officers there.
Or the apron piece could have been dumped by the killer as he fled the scene in the opposite direction to Bishopsgate Police Station - which is considerably more likely than a City PC leaving the square mile and going into another Force area armed with incriminating evidence.
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  #39  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:17 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
That's an interesting suggestion spyglass, and only they would know her release time. If she had arranged a meeting with someone, for example, then her incarceration and the unknown time of release would have put a big kink in her plans. Unless either she was released in time to make that meeting, or that the person waiting was informed about her whereabouts and delay.

What if she was released so that the police could follow her, where she went and who she was to meet, and maybe cordon off that area to ensure that this person couldn't evade them when leaving. The closest people to the actual scene of the crime at the time it occurred were all current or ex police. Pearce, Morris, Harvey, Watkins, Marriott, Halse, Outram...and the crime seems to have occurred when one officer should have been visually checking that court from one point and another entering the court from another.
Harvey wouldn't have been able to check the far corner of Mitre Square from Church Passage with a bulls-eye lamp and wouldn't have been permitted to leave his beat to do so. He wasn't required to check it anyway as Mitre Square was on an adjoining beat and the responsibility of another officer. (That's not to say he would have been justified in ignoring anything sinister that he did see, but there's nothing to indicate that he did any such thing.

Watkin wasn't required to enter the square at any specific time, just to check it as he passed through on each circuit. Fixed beats were a bad idea because they could be anticipated by the observant villain even when, as on this occasion, they were being worked left-handed. Whilst fixed beats were a strategic blunder by the police commanders of that era it doesn't constitute evidence that JtR was a police officer.
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Last edited by Bridewell : 09-21-2018 at 02:22 PM.
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  #40  
Old 09-21-2018, 04:52 PM
Batman Batman is offline
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Any explanation for what he did with the piece of blood and faeces-stained apron in the meantime? (Always assuming that Long had actually checked the stairwell on his previous circuit and there was actually any significant time period between the murder and the off-loading of the apron piece).

Or the apron piece could have been dumped by the killer as he fled the scene in the opposite direction to Bishopsgate Police Station - which is considerably more likely than a City PC leaving the square mile and going into another Force area armed with incriminating evidence.
https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7940

50 minute gap between the murder of Eddowes and the discovery of the GSG.

30 minute gap between Long coming back to the place he found the apron in.

This suggests JtR did not flee quickly to GS.

Why would he go back if he was LE?

Probably told them he was going out for a bit. Maybe even had reason to do so.

10 min walk to Mitre square. 10 min back to Station. Then go down GS, not up it, on the way home.
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