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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > General Suspect Discussion

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  #1561  
Old 06-18-2018, 03:49 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Hi Caz,

But why didn't he even mention that his 'real' name was Lechmere? Is it likely that it didn't even occur to him to mention that he normally identified himself to the authorities by that name?

'I'm known at work as Charlie Cross - Cross was my stepdad's name - but my real name is Charles allen Lechmere', sort of thing?

Gary
I too find it a little odd that there is no AKAs in the record for lech
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  #1562  
Old 06-18-2018, 04:25 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Aren’t we just looking for mystery where none exists? We are used to living in a world of bureaucracy. People in the 19th century weren’t. Especially the working classes who had far less dealings with ‘officialdom’ than we do. So we have a man who gives his name, when asked, as Charles Alan Cross of 22 Doveton Street. When he filled in any kind of official form he’d obviously been told that he had to use his birth name (Lechmere)and not his preferred one. Of course we have no proof that he used Cross from day to day but it’s a fairly reasonable and likely suggestion when faced with the suggested ‘alternative.’ I.e. that he gave a false name to somehow avoid police attention.

If he wanted to give the police a false name to throw them off the scent as it were then that’s surely what he would have done and not given them his correct Christian names, the surname of his stepfather (that he’d previously used on a census) and his correct address. Surely the worst attempt in the history of crime at pulling the wool over the eyes of the police? I really can’t avoid the thinking that this ‘name thing,’ whilst being initially an interesting discovery, is just a complete red herring.
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  #1563  
Old 06-18-2018, 04:38 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Aren’t we just looking for mystery where none exists? We are used to living in a world of bureaucracy. People in the 19th century weren’t. Especially the working classes who had far less dealings with ‘officialdom’ than we do. So we have a man who gives his name, when asked, as Charles Alan Cross of 22 Doveton Street. When he filled in any kind of official form he’d obviously been told that he had to use his birth name (Lechmere)and not his preferred one. Of course we have no proof that he used Cross from day to day but it’s a fairly reasonable and likely suggestion when faced with the suggested ‘alternative.’ I.e. that he gave a false name to somehow avoid police attention.

If he wanted to give the police a false name to throw them off the scent as it were then that’s surely what he would have done and not given them his correct Christian names, the surname of his stepfather (that he’d previously used on a census) and his correct address. Surely the worst attempt in the history of crime at pulling the wool over the eyes of the police? I really can’t avoid the thinking that this ‘name thing,’ whilst being initially an interesting discovery, is just a complete red herring.
And his place of work.
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  #1564  
Old 06-18-2018, 05:02 PM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Aren’t we just looking for mystery where none exists? We are used to living in a world of bureaucracy. People in the 19th century weren’t. Especially the working classes who had far less dealings with ‘officialdom’ than we do. So we have a man who gives his name, when asked, as Charles Alan Cross of 22 Doveton Street. When he filled in any kind of official form he’d obviously been told that he had to use his birth name (Lechmere)and not his preferred one. Of course we have no proof that he used Cross from day to day but it’s a fairly reasonable and likely suggestion when faced with the suggested ‘alternative.’ I.e. that he gave a false name to somehow avoid police attention.

If he wanted to give the police a false name to throw them off the scent as it were then that’s surely what he would have done and not given them his correct Christian names, the surname of his stepfather (that he’d previously used on a census) and his correct address. Surely the worst attempt in the history of crime at pulling the wool over the eyes of the police? I really can’t avoid the thinking that this ‘name thing,’ whilst being initially an interesting discovery, is just a complete red herring.
Hi Mike,

I doubt he was trying to hide his identity in the sense of preventing anyone from being able to find him at his home or his workplace. 'Charles allen ???/Pickfords carman for 20+ years/22, Doveton Street' would have been enough of a giveaway, surely? Adding or omitting 'Lechmere' to/from the mix wouldn't have made a lot of difference in that respect.

So why didn't he feel the need to mention his birth name?

Of course, the use of the name Cross on the 1861 census almost certainly wouldn't have been his decision. He was, what, 11/12 at the time, and the responsibility for providing the info for the return would have been Thomas Cross's as the head of the household. I can imagine possible reasons why TC, even if he was unaware that he was bigamously married, would want to present his stepchildren as Crosses in the official record in 1861, but not why his stepson, 27 years later and long after TC's death, would do so.

If we stand back from the idea that it might have been because it was to protect himself from being identified as JTR, it's still a bit odd, isn't it?

Gary

Last edited by MrBarnett : 06-18-2018 at 05:07 PM.
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  #1565  
Old 06-18-2018, 05:12 PM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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I suspect that CAL had a much stronger idea of his 'real' name and its significance that the majority of his Tiger Bay contemporaries:


http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....hlight=Roulson
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  #1566  
Old 06-18-2018, 05:21 PM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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How many suspect theories have there been so far - 300+? How many more will there be I wonder?

On my list I have several names I would describe as persons of interest - in the general sense of the term - who haven't yet seen much daylight:

The Tomkins brothers (Smith +),
Thomas Fogarty (Tabram),
Stephen Maywood (Kelly)
Billy Maher (Austin).

There must be thousands more who with a bit of spin could be wrestled into suspect material.

Bring 'em on, I say.
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  #1567  
Old 06-18-2018, 06:09 PM
Scott Nelson Scott Nelson is offline
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Except nobody has considered the "real" Ripper, the gas-fitter Henry DeFries who lived on Middlesex Street.
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  #1568  
Old 06-18-2018, 06:40 PM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Except nobody has considered the "real" Ripper, the gas-fitter Henry DeFries who lived on Middlesex Street.

There you go, another possibility. Thanks, Scott.
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  #1569  
Old 06-18-2018, 11:23 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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He may well have informed the authorities of his real name, but preferred to use Cross as the name by which he was more usually known, e.g. "professionally" and perhaps socially. Under those circumstances, I don't see why the police or newspapers should have advertised the fact, but respected his wish that he preferred to be known simply as Charles Cross.

After all, if he'd enrolled with Pickfords 20+ years ago, it appears likely that he'd have done so whilst Thomas Cross was still his pater familias. It's not much of a stretch to suppose that he'd become widely known as Charlie Cross during his adolescence and in his early career, and it just stuck.
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 06-18-2018 at 11:38 PM.
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  #1570  
Old 06-19-2018, 01:28 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
How many suspect theories have there been so far - 300+? How many more will there be I wonder?

On my list I have several names I would describe as persons of interest - in the general sense of the term - who haven't yet seen much daylight:

The Tomkins brothers (Smith +),
Thomas Fogarty (Tabram),
Stephen Maywood (Kelly)
Billy Maher (Austin).

There must be thousands more who with a bit of spin could be wrestled into suspect material.

Bring 'em on, I say.

Yes the Tomkins boys are certainly interesting, particularly in Bucks Row. I suspect Henry is covering up something other than murder, but who knows.


Steve
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