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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

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  #181  
Old 09-25-2018, 05:12 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
They weren't going to dismiss Schwartz's account off-hand when he allegedly saw the victim being assaulted minutes before the murder. It's not like they had any stronger leads to go on.

Problem is, this alleged attack was not witnessed or corroborated by anyone else.
PIPEMAN was found and cleared.

https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8520
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  #182  
Old 09-25-2018, 05:28 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
I posted this on another thread, hope it is relevant regarding Schwartz testimony - Wynne Baxter gave a very detailed summing up on the last day of the inquest.
The CORONER, in summing up, said the jury would probably agree with him that it would be unreasonable to adjourn this inquiry again on the chance of something further being ascertained to elucidate the mysterious case on which they had devoted so much time.
Note something further being ascertained. So if Schwartz had gone missing or was difficult to find Wynne Baxter would certainly have adjourned the inquest again. Not only that but he goes into detail of the sightings of Marshall, Pc Smith and most tellingly James Brown. He then sums up whether they all saw the victim with the murderer or not,the time differences, and the differences in their descriptions, without debunking any of them. This is important with Brown because he allegedly saw Stride at the same time as Schwartz. Surely this would cast doubt on Brown seeing the victim but nowhere does he say or even hint at it. IE There is some evidence which is still being investigated which may suggest that the victim was seen in the company of another man the same time as the witness James Brown was alleged to have seen her. This would protect Schwartz whilst at the same time opening up the possibility that Brown was mistaken. Maybe just maybe the veracity of Schwartz was being investigated during the adjournment. But by the 23rd [Swanson's report is the 19th] he was considered to be too unreliable to take the stand, so the summing up went ahead.
HI DK
I think Brown saw another man-he dosnt quite fit the description of the other witnesses. and I would suggest that Schwartz wasn't at the inquest because of the fact he was basically a foreigner, and didn't speak the language(logistics with an interpreter etc.)
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  #183  
Old 09-25-2018, 05:32 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Given the heightened suspicion of Jews in the area, it would not surprise me if Schwartz was a stooge who fabricated an attack on Stride to deflect suspicion from the IWEC.

Like I said, for a woman that was being roughed up and thrown to the floor, she had no abrasions or bruises to her hands or legs, her clothes were undisturbed, and she was still clenching her cachous when the killer struck. I guess Stride made up with her assailant and went into the unlit yard to meet her doom.
perhaps-never thought of that scenario before. it would have to be a quick turnaround of emotions though that's for sure!!!
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  #184  
Old 09-25-2018, 05:38 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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I tend to look at Schwartz being new to a foreign country another way. It would be all alien to him, and he would be desperate to fit in with his people. Creating a false alibi as such for the IWEC with promises about being integrated easier into the Jewish population might have swayed him to do it for his family. "We don't trust the police they will try and pin this on us etc" Another Leather apron scare. The chance of a full-blown racial conflict must have been very serious for Warren to erase the Goulston St graffiti. Somebody new to the country in the acting line who doesn't speak English so can always put it down to misinterpretation etc Alien to the customs and language of the country [possibly laws as well]. If the Iwec wanted someone to divert attention away from a club which had its share of anarchists etc, my own personel opinion is Schwartz would be a good fit.
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  #185  
Old 09-25-2018, 06:09 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
I tend to look at Schwartz being new to a foreign country another way. It would be all alien to him, and he would be desperate to fit in with his people. Creating a false alibi as such for the IWEC with promises about being integrated easier into the Jewish population might have swayed him to do it for his family. "We don't trust the police they will try and pin this on us etc" Another Leather apron scare. The chance of a full-blown racial conflict must have been very serious for Warren to erase the Goulston St graffiti. Somebody new to the country in the acting line who doesn't speak English so can always put it down to misinterpretation etc Alien to the customs and language of the country [possibly laws as well]. If the Iwec wanted someone to divert attention away from a club which had its share of anarchists etc, my own personel opinion is Schwartz would be a good fit.
Hi DK
Perhaps-but that's a pretty big lie, with major consequences.

I guess you have to balance what would be greater-his allegiance to himself and family(and the police and the public in general) or to the club. I go with the former. especially since there is no evidence any suspicion fell on him or the club.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #186  
Old 09-25-2018, 07:34 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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Hi Abby I do take your point and I have to be honest I think there is a chance that Schwartz witnessed a dispute. I think Trevor outlined quite well what possibly happened in an earlier post. I just wonder if certain members of the club were worried about possible arson attacks say, against the club or Jewish property in general. Or attacks on individual members and their families, which may have persuaded some of them to use Schwartz to divert suspicion away from the club. Even if the police couldn't find any evidence against the IWEC members being Jack, with one of the victims being discovered in the yard of a Jewish club would only inflame racial bigotry [take matters into their own hands etc] with certain members of the population. Even Anderson thought that certain members of the Jewish population if they knew something would hide it.

Last edited by Darryl Kenyon : 09-25-2018 at 07:37 AM.
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  #187  
Old 09-25-2018, 07:52 AM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
I posted this on another thread, hope it is relevant regarding Schwartz testimony - Wynne Baxter gave a very detailed summing up on the last day of the inquest.
The CORONER, in summing up, said the jury would probably agree with him that it would be unreasonable to adjourn this inquiry again on the chance of something further being ascertained to elucidate the mysterious case on which they had devoted so much time.
Note something further being ascertained. So if Schwartz had gone missing or was difficult to find Wynne Baxter would certainly have adjourned the inquest again. Not only that but he goes into detail of the sightings of Marshall, Pc Smith and most tellingly James Brown. He then sums up whether they all saw the victim with the murderer or not,the time differences, and the differences in their descriptions, without debunking any of them. This is important with Brown because he allegedly saw Stride at the same time as Schwartz. Surely this would cast doubt on Brown seeing the victim but nowhere does he say or even hint at it. IE There is some evidence which is still being investigated which may suggest that the victim was seen in the company of another man the same time as the witness James Brown was alleged to have seen her. This would protect Schwartz whilst at the same time opening up the possibility that Brown was mistaken. Maybe just maybe the veracity of Schwartz was being investigated during the adjournment. But by the 23rd [Swanson's report is the 19th] he was considered to be too unreliable to take the stand, so the summing up went ahead.

Yeah.Schwartz's testimony was the most important,more important than Best\Gardner\Marshall\Smith\Eagle\Brown,an assault 15 minutes before,closest time to the discovery of the body.If Schwartz could talk to a reporter he could talk to the Coroner.The coroner had the right to summon him per Coroners Act. Baxter had at least 22 days to change his mind.But Baxter choose to ignore him.So yes the "conclusion" is he was unreliable,mistaken as to the time/day perhaps,we do not know why.I do not see having an interpreter a barrier for him to testify.But in the end they chose Lawende in subsequent ID's.
So if Schwartz's testimony was not reliable we have Brown as the last person who had seen Stride/man at the corner of the Board School.

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Last edited by Varqm : 09-25-2018 at 08:03 AM.
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  #188  
Old 09-25-2018, 08:21 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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Yes, it does seem strange that an interpreter was there for Schwartz to give his statement but one couldn't be found for the whole time the inquest was going on, including after the adjournment.
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  #189  
Old 09-25-2018, 08:39 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
The natural thing would be to suspect their involvement when she is found dead on their property. Israel changed that.
JtR changed that because irrespective of Schwartz, investigators understood that a fleeing by foot murderer going towards the city would come across Eddowes out of the drunk tank and for the taking.

Even the media understood it was a Double Event, despite other murders that occurred on the same day.
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  #190  
Old 09-25-2018, 08:47 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
JtR changed that because irrespective of Schwartz, investigators understood that a fleeing by foot murderer going towards the city would come across Eddowes out of the drunk tank and for the taking.
For me, the fact that "Jack" just happened to find, seduce, kill and mutilate another victim so quickly after Berner Street is one of the factors that militates against the Double Event's being the work of one killer.
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