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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

View Poll Results: Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?
Yes 64 83.12%
No 9 11.69%
Undecided 4 5.19%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

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  #361  
Old 07-25-2018, 12:26 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Are you flying in the face of Ripper lore and suggesting she was murdered by someone else?
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  #362  
Old 07-25-2018, 01:25 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Are you flying in the face of Ripper lore and suggesting she was murdered by someone else?
C'mon Simon, when have you known me to be controversial?



In this case, I don't remember if the question posed by the thread title was ever answered.
For me, I take the safe route and fall in line with all those less imaginative sorts who align themselves with the obvious.
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  #363  
Old 09-05-2018, 07:38 AM
Karl Karl is offline
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I don't believe MJK was a Ripper victim. All the other victims were significantly older, and smaller. By all accounts, Jack was no taller than average himself, whereas MJK was taller than even the male average. She would not have looked like an easy target. And yes, it is fully possible that the killer was stronger than her still, but serial killers do not usually gamble. Especially when he's used to choking them from the front, which becomes a lot more difficult if the victim is taller - even if the victim is weaker. MJK would have been five or more inches taller than JtR, which should be enough to give any man pause, no matter how confident he is in his strength. Perpetrators of all sorts of crime where strangers are targeted never pick their victims at random - it's almost always someone they deem to be an easy target.
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  #364  
Old 09-05-2018, 08:07 AM
Rob1n Rob1n is offline
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That's all quite sensible but, knowing she was, as you say, 5 or so inches taller, could that be why he killed her inside, her cloths were stacked neatly, suggesting they had calmly got ready for bed, as they lay down she wouldn't be expecting an attack, she would probably have expected and attack standing up in a dark place like the others. I'm suggesting she was totally off guard and therefore, an easy target.I'd imagine he'd picked his target and possibly for your reason and possibly because he knew she had her own quiet room, that MJK was targeted by the Ripper.
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  #365  
Old 09-05-2018, 08:18 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl View Post
I don't believe MJK was a Ripper victim.
Then two different men came up with the idea of cutting the abdominal wall away in large flaps from both Chapman and Kelly. The chances of that happening are extremely slim.
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  #366  
Old 09-05-2018, 08:28 AM
Karl Karl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob1n View Post
That's all quite sensible but, knowing she was, as you say, 5 or so inches taller, could that be why he killed her inside, her cloths were stacked neatly, suggesting they had calmly got ready for bed, as they lay down she wouldn't be expecting an attack, she would probably have expected and attack standing up in a dark place like the others. I'm suggesting she was totally off guard and therefore, an easy target.I'd imagine he'd picked his target and possibly for your reason and possibly because he knew she had her own quiet room, that MJK was targeted by the Ripper.
The reason she was killed inside is because she brought her tricks inside. Unless he knew her, however, he would probably not have known that she was an in-door prostitute when he approached her.

And the neatly folded clothes is another thing. The killer of the other victims does not seem to have been interested in watching them expose themselves before he struck. And MJK would have been at her most vulnerable while undressing (even if facing him) and not after.
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  #367  
Old 09-05-2018, 08:32 AM
Karl Karl is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Then two different men came up with the idea of cutting the abdominal wall away in large flaps from both Chapman and Kelly. The chances of that happening are extremely slim.
They didn't have to "come up" with the idea. I see MJK as a copy-cat murder: I believe she was murdered for a completely different reason, and the killer mutilated her as best he could in order to associate the murder with Jack the Ripper.

You draw the comparison of "cutting the abdominal wall away in large flaps" between Chapman and Kelly. But how well does that comparison fare with Nichols or Eddowes?
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  #368  
Old 09-05-2018, 09:18 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl View Post
They didn't have to "come up" with the idea. I see MJK as a copy-cat murder: I believe she was murdered for a completely different reason, and the killer mutilated her as best he could in order to associate the murder with Jack the Ripper.
With Kelly, mutilation and evisceration were taken much further than the Ripper had before. If Kelly died by another hand, it wasn't so much a case of the Ripper being copied, but surpassed.
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  #369  
Old 09-05-2018, 09:56 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl View Post
They didn't have to "come up" with the idea. I see MJK as a copy-cat murder: I believe she was murdered for a completely different reason, and the killer mutilated her as best he could in order to associate the murder with Jack the Ripper.

You draw the comparison of "cutting the abdominal wall away in large flaps" between Chapman and Kelly. But how well does that comparison fare with Nichols or Eddowes?
It does not. Then again, it was Kelly you wanted to rule out, and I pointed to how she is closely tied to Chapman, close enough, in fact, to be either the victim of the same killer or - as you suggest - the victim of a copycat killer.

A copycat killer who copied the flap thing and then went over the top totally.
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  #370  
Old 09-05-2018, 10:15 AM
AuroraSarintacos AuroraSarintacos is offline
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Given the fact that Ms. Kelly was in an enclosed environment I feel it is a safe assumption that due to the extensive mutilations she was, for all intents and purposes, murdered by the same hand as the previous women.

The escalation of violence is evident in each killing; the attacking of the face was present in the Eddowes murder.

I strongly doubt she was murdered by a "copy cat" killer and I do not believe he was intimidated by Ms. Kelly's stature.

I think one of the more stranger things is the fact that she was undressed. The killer seemed to have been (based off the eye witness testimony and the finding of the bodies) a blitz killer - acting fast and catching the victim off guard. He seemed to have killed his victims within 15 minutes of meeting them. And while I doubt he "enjoyed" Ms. Kelly undressing, I would say that he was acting fairly calm before he attacked her.

Other than her youth and the fact that she had her own flat (which she was behind in rent) there is really nothing that differs this woman from the rest of the women murdered.
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