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  #51  
Old 12-18-2018, 12:59 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
But Kennedy was also placed in the room opposite Kelly's, and heard the fateful cry of "Murder" which might have indicated TOD, and which would have served to corroborat Lewis.
Substantiating a story falls under investigation, a coroner is not investigating, that is the role of the police.
Macdonald has already read all the available witness statements, he knows Kennedy heard the same as Lewis, from the same location. Therefore, he has no cause to call a second witness to the same evidence.

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Did Crawford flip a coin to decide between Kennedy and Lewis?
No, Lewis saw the loiterer, Kennedy didn't. A loiterer outside the murder scene is of more value to the inquest, Lewis gets to testify.

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For that matter, if all that was required by the inquest was to establish time and manner of death, and Crawford was such a stickler, why did he bother getting Prater to testify? She, too, heard the same cry as Lewis and Kennedy after all, but offered precious little else.
Yes, but Prater' evidence is not the same as Lewis's. Prater did not verify Cox's story, and could testify as to the murder room being quiet, dark and presumably empty after 1:00 am.
Lewis could not.

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At least Kennedy saw a potential Mary Kelly having an altercation with a creepy man that night, which is more than any other witness did, Lewis included.
Yes, according to Kennedy the victim was seen alive & well at about 3:00 am. But, don't forget, Macdonald has already read this in her police statement. He knows what she saw.
I think you are approaching this from the perspective that, if the coroner does not hear a witness, then he does not know the evidence. This is not true.
Macdonald already knows Kennedy's story, that her statement verifies Lewis - so why call both?

Morris Lewis's story verified, to a point, that of Mrs Maxwell, but M.Lewis was not called. If you compare the stories of M.Lewis & Maxwell, the latter's story was more informative for the court than that of M.Lewis.
Maxwell gets the summons to appear.

If Kennedy had approached Millers Court from another direction and seen different people along the way, her story would be different, except that she also heard the cry of murder at the same time. Quite possibly she would have been called as, like Prater, Kennedy could provide more circumstantial details not mentioned by another witness.

Prater had a much different story to tell from Lewis, but it ended with the same cry. Kennedy had a very similar story to tell as Lewis, and it also ended with the same cry.
Lewis & Prater are issued with a summons, Kennedy is not.
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  #52  
Old 12-18-2018, 01:15 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I'd like to know, too, but I can't remember anyone definitely tracking them down.
I made a list of familiar names in the 1891 census of the East End last year.

10 named Sarah Lewis.
1 named Sarah Emma Kennedy.
1 " Sarah Ronee
1 " Mary Ann Cox.
1 Callagher family.
1 Kaylor family.

I had to break off the search and never completed it.
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  #53  
Old 12-18-2018, 01:16 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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An hour before the scream of "Murder!", on the corner of Dorset Street, Mrs Kennedy says she saw a drunken woman having an altercation with a creepy man by whom she herself been accosted in Bethnal Green. Why would Macdonald (sorry, I said Crawford earlier) choose not to have this potentially significant testimony put on the official record? Unless it was a pile of bull, of course.
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  #54  
Old 12-18-2018, 01:17 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
I made a list of familiar names in the 1891 census of the East End last year.

10 named Sarah Lewis.
1 named Sarah Emma Kennedy.
1 " Sarah Ronee
1 " Mary Ann Cox.
1 Callagher family.
1 Kaylor family.
...and a Paumier in a pear tree
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  #55  
Old 12-18-2018, 01:25 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
An hour before the scream of "Murder!", on the corner of Dorset Street, Mrs Kennedy says she saw a drunken woman having an altercation with a creepy man by whom she herself been accosted in Bethnal Green. Why would Macdonald (sorry, I said Crawford earlier) choose not to have this potentially significant testimony put on the official record? Unless it was a pile of bull, of course.
But Lewis saw the same 'creepy' man, so its not like Kennedy's sighting went unacknowledged. Lewis also saw the loiterer, Kennedy didn't.

I'm not trying to say that Macdonald conducted the perfect inquest, he didn't, certainly not from an inquisitive point of view. He may have erred in his judgement on selection. But, I'm only saying Macdonald knew what Kennedy saw, he had her police statement. So it's not like what she saw went unknown.
Macdonald decided to not call her as a witness, which is no reflection on her statement. Hundreds were also bypassed with no reflection on them either.
All these witnesses had to be paid for, and it seems Macdoald was a penny-pincher. some didn't even get paid.
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  #56  
Old 12-18-2018, 02:13 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
This supposed cry of Oh murder is another red herring, which researchers are to keen to rely upon in the grand scheme of things.

If someone was about to kill me with a knife the last thing I would think about shouting out is "Oh murder" In the case of a female confronted in this situation loud screams might be the first sounds uttered, but not oh murder !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
The doctors said death was before 6 am and the cry was at 3:30-3:45 or near 4 and probably the lurking man has significance.Believe in Maxwell instead? Kelly was drunk and/or asleep/half-asleep, Phillips: "leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery, which was the immediate cause of death, was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead," when the killer struck so a cry was not unusual.How far would the killer be for Kelly to have time to say "Murder" or "Oh murder".3 feet,should be more,the killer could extend his arm.

Echo
London, U.K.
10 November 1888

Dr. Phillips has only vaguely indicated to the local police the result of his investigations, but a report on the question has, it has been asserted, been jointly made by him and Dr. Bond, and submitted to Sir Charles Warren. It is believed to be the medical opinion hat the woman was killed in her sleep,
or while in a partially comatose condition arising from drink.

I would think you would fight instead of "cry",Trevor/somebody else with a pillow would beat JTR with a knife.


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Last edited by Varqm : 12-18-2018 at 02:34 PM.
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  #57  
Old 12-18-2018, 02:15 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
Mrs Kennedy's statement is of the upmost importance least of all because it corroborates a lot of what Sarah Lewis said.
And since her statement was taken on the ninth the police would be fully aware of this very important witness, yet she was not called to the inquest we have to ask our selfs why? A woman selling a story she had heard second hand to a newspaper reporter only too willing to pay a shilling or even just for a hot cup of tea and a roll looking for a scoop.
I agree.Aside from other reasons,Lewis's\Kennedy story was probably the same as described below, only the time,Lewis 2:30 - Kennedy 3:00,was different.

The Star
Largest Circulation of Any Evening Paper in the Kingdom.
LONDON. SATURDAY, 10 NOVEMBER, 1888.

Miller's-court or McCarthy's-court - was vigilantly kept by two constables, who allowed no one to pass except by special favor, and showed especial zeal in the exclusion of reporters.
The desire to be interesting has had its effect on the people who live in the Dorset-street-court and lodging-houses, and for whoever cares to listen there are A HUNDRED HIGHLY CIRCUMSTANTIAL STORIES,which, when carefully sifted, prove to be totally devoid of truth.
One woman (as reported below) who lives in the court stated that at about two o'clock she heard a cry of "Murder." This story soon became popular,until at last half a dozen women were retailing it as their own personal experience.Each story contradicted the others with respect to the time at which the cry was heard. A Star reporter who inquired into the matter extracted from one of the women the confession that the story was, as far as she was concerned, a fabrication; and he came to the conclusion that it was to be disregarded.

Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, who has been deserted by her husband, knew Kelly well, she told a Star reporter,...

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Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
M. Pacana

Last edited by Varqm : 12-18-2018 at 02:32 PM.
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  #58  
Old 12-19-2018, 07:24 AM
miss marple miss marple is offline
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Finding evidence of Mrs Kennedy and the Keylors, Kaylors. is proving very difficult.The Sarah Emma Kennedy in the 1891 census is Sarah Emma Moss who married Daniel Kennedy in Wandsworth in 1878. So far have found nothing.

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