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Same motive = same killer

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  • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    That question is irrelevant until we know why he dumped where he did. Did Ted Bundy live on Taylor Mountain...?
    The question is entirely relevant. Not many Victorians had a Volkswagen Bug.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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    • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
      The question is entirely relevant. Not many Victorians had a Volkswagen Bug.
      A good lot of them had transport means that were just as useful when it comes to transporting body parts, though. So there goes that relevance, Gareth.

      It can be suggested that the killer lived in Battersea.

      It can be suggested that the killer had a bolthole in Battersea.

      It can be suggeed that the killer chose to dump in Battersea without having his lodging or a bolthole there.

      All three suggestions are viable, but whether they are relevant we don´t know.

      If you want to believe that the killer lived in Battersea, then go ahead and do so. Just don´t claim that he MUST have done so or that it is the only viable suggestion. Ot the "best" or "most likely" suggestion. It isn´t. It is one of many possibilities.
      Last edited by Fisherman; 11-05-2017, 02:25 AM.

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      • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
        It can be suggested that the killer lived in Battersea.
        Yes. By far the most likely explanation.
        It can be suggested that the killer had a bolthole in Battersea.
        Why look for excuses? Why didn't the ancients just accept the obvious explanation that the Earth goes round the sun, rather than invent epicycles to "explain" why Mars, Jupiter and Saturn sometimes move in retrograde? The answer is that they had a hard-wired notion of the cosmos, into which these apparently anomalous orbits had to be made to fit somehow.
        It can be suggeed that the killer chose to dump in Battersea without having his lodging or a bolthole there.
        Why Battersea? Plenty of other potential dumpsites along the Thames. It's a long river.
        Last edited by Sam Flynn; 11-05-2017, 02:28 AM.
        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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        • Sam Flynn: Yes. By far the most likely explanation.

          I´m afraid it´s nothing of the sort, Gareth. It is completely viable, but only one suggestion of many. It can be reasoned that the killer would pick a spot away from home, in order not to tell the police where he resided, so all we can say is that the killer dumped the parts in the western area of London for SOME reason. Whether that was because he lived there, worked there, had a bolthole there, had a quay place for his boat there, knew his way around there, disliked Battersea or anything else is written in the stars.

          Why look for excuses?

          We only need excuses when we know we are wrong, Gareth. So, basically, you are the one looking for an excuse here. You are trying to find a way around how we can all see that the Ripper and the Torso killer both did the same things to their victims, and they were therefore one and the same.
          This you do not like. Not at all. So you need an excuse to try and tell them apart. And the best you can find is that the Torso killer "must" have lived in the western parts of London.
          He must not. Simple as.
          And even if he did, there is nothing telling us that the Ripper must have lived in the eastern parts - he may have been a commuter killer who had taken a disliking to the women of Whitechapel, for whatever reason. He could for example have been subjected to scorn by Whitechapel prostitutes or anything like that. Similarly, he could be a man who lived in the west, but visited the eastern parts by way of his job.

          These are ALL subordinate matters. It is completely clear that these men were one and the same - the similarities and rarity of the deeds puts that beyond question - and so there WILL be a simple enough explanation to the choice of killing grounds and dumping sites.

          Why didn't the ancients just accept the obvious explanation that the Earth goes round the sun, rather than invent epicycles to "explain" why Mars, Jupiter and Saturn sometimes move in retrograde? The answer is that they had a hard-wired notion of the cosmos, into which these apparently anomalous orbits had to be made to fit somehow.

          Is that an effort to make some sort of parallel with how it is clear that the series were connected? If so, it is very misguided - YOU are the one creating an alternative cosmos, not me.

          Why Battersea? Plenty of other potential dumpsites along the Thames. It's a long river.

          Why not Battersea? Regardless of which area he dumped in, it could always be asked "Why X?" or "Why Z?" That is a question that can only be answered in detail by a man who has been dead for, say, 97 years, Gareth.
          Last edited by Fisherman; 11-05-2017, 03:06 AM.

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          • On the issue of how a killer may change his MO as a result of opportunism, one can mention David Carpenter, the so called "Trailside killer" from the San Fransisco area.
            Carpenter stalked the trails of the nature reserves off San Fransisco, abducted women from the trails, raped them and shot them. When the firs reserve was getting too hot, he took his business to another reserve. It seemed he had his MO set in cement.
            Then a woman from his working place asked him for a lift, and Carpenter seized the opportunity, offered the ride and raped and killed Kelly Ann Menjivar along the road.

            The clincher was the bullets, having come from the same weapon. In our case, the clinchers come in heaps.

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            • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
              >>Serial killers change their MO all the time. It’s actually quite common, and well known.<<

              I agree, they can often be very erratic but, how many serial killers have two very distinct different m.o's.

              (Genuine question, I have no idea.)
              Not many. And I say that because you specifically say distinct, so I know what you are getting at.

              But off the top of my head, the Boston strangler had at least two, one in which he just raped, and another in which he killed. The original night stalker had three, Ted buddy’s ruse and attack method was bookended by hot prowl attacks.

              And there’s numerous serial killers where it’s more of a gray area between there change in MO, changing weapons, that sort of thing.

              But it also needs to be pointed out that the apparent distinct as you say MOs are really only in how the victims were left. Because they probably had the same MO in the initial stage... that it is a ruse to get the victim to where the killer wanted them and then violent and sudden kill ( no torture).
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

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              • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                There were also two cuts above one wrist, inflicted after death; perhaps the culprit had intended to sever the hands, or even the arms, but thought twice about it?
                The two cuts were somewhat superficial, if I can use that word. Dr Phillips thought they were likely collateral damage;

                "The two small cuts upon the forearm appear to me as likely to have been caused when the sweep of the knife divided the muscles covering the upper part of the thigh."

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                • Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                  Hmmm....I wonder where I read that originally, Rocky. I don't remember it at all! I will have to re-investigate that.
                  There was apparently a well somewhere in the foundations which was searched for the rest of the torso. Could that be what you were thinking of?

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                  • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                    The two cuts were somewhat superficial, if I can use that word. Dr Phillips thought they were likely collateral damage;

                    "The two small cuts upon the forearm appear to me as likely to have been caused when the sweep of the knife divided the muscles covering the upper part of the thigh."
                    ... meaning, therefore, that the cuts to the forearm were in all probability in line with where the cuts to the thigh had been inflicted, looking like unintended extentions of those cuts as the torso lay on the slab with the arms stretched out alongside it.

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                    • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                      There was apparently a well somewhere in the foundations which was searched for the rest of the torso. Could that be what you were thinking of?
                      I found reference to a drain that was dug out with the trenches. Dirt and debri were piled up by the drain and near there they found the leg.

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                      • Thanks for the various replies to dual m.o.'s.

                        I've had a quick look (Wiki, I don't know how reliable it is) and there doesn't seem to be the difference I was looking for.

                        Kurten seems to be just an erratic killer. The Boston Strangler seems to have a definate theme, strangling. Ted Bundy doesn't seem have the clear separation "Torso" and jtr have.



                        Hello Abby,

                        >>Not many. And I say that because you specifically say distinct, so I know what you are getting at.<<

                        "Distinct"
                        was my word but not my deduction. That distinction belongs to Hebbert. As the only person we have access to, who closely examined both Torso and jtr victims, when he concluded they were "very clearly" the work of different people, I bow to his knowledge in the absence of any compelling data to the contary.
                        dustymiller
                        aka drstrange

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                        • where was mr condy's factory in relation to the points of interest in battersea?

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                          • Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
                            where was mr condy's factory in relation to the points of interest in battersea?

                            In 1890 according to a news ad, it was located at 39, Turnmill Street in Clerkenwell. Lots of people used Condy's Fluid though, such as hospitals. It was also a remedy for sore throats.

                            It was never proven that Condy's fluid was used on the Whitehall torso. It was stated by one of the journalists to be a possibility because of the discoloration on the skin. I presume this was one of the two journalists that went into the vault with the dog. I still find it hard to believe out of the six or so witnesses that were in the vault, no one smelled anything yet when they dragged it out of the vault and opened it up, it stunk to high heaven.
                            Last edited by jerryd; 11-05-2017, 08:19 PM.

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                            • I believe you are correct though Rocky, the actual factory was in Battersea. Condy and Dr Mitchell must have had offices in Turnmill Street, Clerkenwell. Or perhaps a shop to peddle their goods?

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                              • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                                I believe you are correct though Rocky, the actual factory was in Battersea. Condy and Dr Mitchell must have had offices in Turnmill Street, Clerkenwell. Or perhaps a shop to peddle their goods?
                                I read that dr condy inherited the factory in battersea and I believe that's where the condy's fluid and then the powder was made. so it's interesting that the condy's powder has a local connection to battersea. What other parts beside the Whitehall torso were said to have a preservative or chemical on them again jerry?

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