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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #1401  
Old 07-06-2017, 03:56 AM
John G John G is offline
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Originally Posted by kjab3112 View Post
To be fair to Fish, I suspect the "several arteries" represents those supplying the abdominal wall musculature. My issue with involvement of the aorta lies in the pure depth of these arteries. The mean depth of the aorta from the abdominal wall are 6cm (normal), 10cm (overweight) and 13cm (obese) [Hunt teal 1992]. With a given knife length of 6-8 inches (15-20 cm) and the clothing position, I doubt the wounds are quite deep enough. Do they enter the peritoneal cavity, yes (Spratling: the omentum was cut); would some vessels be involved, undoubtedly; would these be fatal, eventually; would they cause death early enough to result in no scream by the time the larynx was cut, there lies the problem. The neck cut though would sever both carotid arteries and cut the trachea below the larynx, hence no scream.

Does this mean the killer did not commit overkill by performing several unnecessary cuts, the opposite is true. Does this mean Lechmere/Cross was not present within a few minutes of the cut, undoubtedly. Can Lechmere/Cross be ruled out by the bleeding time, no. Do I believe Lechmere/Cross the killer, as stated before a person of interest, but unlikely. Why? He was caught at the scene, the killer though didn't change his pattern until MJK to move indoors, surely Lechmere/Cross, if the killer, would have switched earlier and although Annie was in a secluded yard, Kate and Mitre Square are not exactly the action of someone taking more care.

Paul
Hi Paul,

But can we be certain that MJK was murdered by the same perpetrator who was almost certainly responsible for Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes? Consider the fact that the level of overkill is much greater than the earlier victims, and the degree of skill that was apparent substantially less.

Moreover, if JtR was responsible for Kelly then he may not have initially intended to strike indoors; it could be, hypothetically speaking, that he simply took advantage of the fact that Kelly lived near by and had access to a private room.

There's also the possibility that Kelly was murdered by someone she knew, whether that be JtR or not, as there are certain indications of a more personal motive.
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  #1402  
Old 07-06-2017, 04:02 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Hi Paul,

But can we be certain that MJK was murdered by the same perpetrator who was almost certainly responsible for Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes? Consider the fact that the level of overkill is much greater than the earlier victims, and the degree of skill that was apparent substantially less.

Moreover, if JtR was responsible for Kelly then he may not have initially intended to strike indoors; it could be, hypothetically speaking, that he simply took advantage of the fact that Kelly lived near by and had access to a private room.

There's also the possibility that Kelly was murdered by someone she knew, whether that be JtR or not, as there are certain indications of a more personal motive.
Oh, no. Not Kelly again. I have never seen an explanation from Fisherman for Kelly.


Pierre
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  #1403  
Old 07-06-2017, 04:08 AM
Mark Adam Mark Adam is offline
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Oh, no. Not Kelly again. I have never seen an explanation from Fisherman for Kelly.


Pierre
Whats yours?

Just to start with.......
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  #1404  
Old 07-06-2017, 04:15 AM
Mark Adam Mark Adam is offline
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Originally Posted by John G View Post
Hi Paul,

But can we be certain that MJK was murdered by the same perpetrator who was almost certainly responsible for Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes? Consider the fact that the level of overkill is much greater than the earlier victims, and the degree of skill that was apparent substantially less.

Moreover, if JtR was responsible for Kelly then he may not have initially intended to strike indoors; it could be, hypothetically speaking, that he simply took advantage of the fact that Kelly lived near by and had access to a private room.

There's also the possibility that Kelly was murdered by someone she knew, whether that be JtR or not, as there are certain indications of a more personal motive.
If used bayes theorem it is much more unlikely to have two different killers doing basically the same thing (eviscerating etc.) in an area that small.

BTW.: I would also like to put out that the possibilty of two individuals in this small are you have gne over this special treshold not only to murder aprson but to nearly destroy them is very low.

I do not think that a normal bloke from the streets would be able to do this to a woman no matter how angry he is, without vomitting his soul out when done for the first time.

Just ask yourself the question: "Could I do this to some other individual" - I could not..........
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  #1405  
Old 07-06-2017, 04:42 AM
Harry D Harry D is online now
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Originally Posted by John G View Post
There's also the possibility that Kelly was murdered by someone she knew, whether that be JtR or not, as there are certain indications of a more personal motive.
Is there, though?

JTR went to town on Eddowes, as much as the dark corner of Mitre Square would allow for, with bobbies patrolling the beat. This is the first time he inflicted wounds designed to disfigure the face of the victim. Yes, it's one of those old Ripper chestnuts, but MJK is the next step-up for a killer escalating in violence who moved indoors.
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Hail to the king, baby!
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  #1406  
Old 07-06-2017, 05:28 AM
John G John G is offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Adam View Post
If used bayes theorem it is much more unlikely to have two different killers doing basically the same thing (eviscerating etc.) in an area that small.

BTW.: I would also like to put out that the possibilty of two individuals in this small are you have gne over this special treshold not only to murder aprson but to nearly destroy them is very low.

I do not think that a normal bloke from the streets would be able to do this to a woman no matter how angry he is, without vomitting his soul out when done for the first time.

Just ask yourself the question: "Could I do this to some other individual" - I could not..........
Hello Mark,

Yes, I agree, to argue otherwise appears counter-intuitive, and I do believe, on balance, that Kelly was a Ripper victim. And yet...Where do you draw the line?

Thus, there is no doubt that during this period there was an explosion of rare knife murders. And if your going to include into the Canon a case where there was undoubtedly a higher level of overkill, and lesser level of skill, apparent, what about cases where there was less overkill, such as Coles, McKenzie and Ellen Bury? In fact, you could argue that Mackenzie is a more likely JtR victim than Kelly, if only because of the unusual double neck cut, which links the murder to both Nichols and Chapman.
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  #1407  
Old 07-06-2017, 05:32 AM
John G John G is offline
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Is there, though?

JTR went to town on Eddowes, as much as the dark corner of Mitre Square would allow for, with bobbies patrolling the beat. This is the first time he inflicted wounds designed to disfigure the face of the victim. Yes, it's one of those old Ripper chestnuts, but MJK is the next step-up for a killer escalating in violence who moved indoors.
However, it was a major escalation if that was what it was, involving almost total destruction of the body. And Kelly's face wasn't just subjected to relatively minor disfigurement; it was virtually cut off, to the point where the victim was virtually unrecognizable. And, as noted in my earlier post, consideration needs to be given to the substantial deterioration in the level of skill that was apparent.
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  #1408  
Old 07-06-2017, 05:47 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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In fact, you could argue that Mackenzie is a more likely JtR victim than Kelly, if only because of the unusual double neck cut, which links the murder to both Nichols and Chapman.
Hi John

What are your sources for this ?

Of the above three victims, Kelly and Chapman had similar neck wounds that completely circled the neck, whereas Nichols had 2 cuts to the throat, and McKenzie had one entry wound to the neck which had been stabbed twice.
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  #1409  
Old 07-06-2017, 05:54 AM
Mark Adam Mark Adam is offline
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Hi John G

As to the question:Yes, I agree, to argue otherwise appears counter-intuitive, and I do believe, on balance, that Kelly was a Ripper victim. And yet...Where do you draw the line?

As i read in the dissertation of Sam Flynn concerning the Eddows murder, there are not so many differences in technique and "performance" if you will between her and Kelly, and i tend to belive that - if in fact the head would have been removed or the incisions would be on the back I guess I would start doubting.......

But Im used to belive the mathematics and referring to Bayes it is more unlikely to have two killers/serialists at the same time having quite the same signature......

I would not exclude any of the victims you mentioned, it may be they all are done by the same hand ---- again Bayes.....

Mark
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  #1410  
Old 07-06-2017, 07:49 AM
John G John G is offline
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!!!!!
Oh dear, as your unable to give a sensible response I'm going to take a wild guess that Ed Wasn't available, meaning we're back with the summer pantomime season. Of course, you've got form for these kinds of juvenile responses when backed into a corner. Frankly, at times it's like dealing with a small child or at least a most unruly pupil!

How the mighty have fallen...

Last edited by John G : 07-06-2017 at 08:07 AM.
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