Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by harry 23 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by Trevor Marriott 2 hours ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by Debra A 2 hours ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by harry 6 hours ago.
Non-Fiction: The Mysterious Fred - by Simon Wood 9 hours ago.
Shades of Whitechapel: Dennis Nilsen - by Mayerling 9 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - (10 posts)
Non-Fiction: The Mysterious Fred - (3 posts)
Casebook Announcements: Katherine Bradshaw Amin (1980-2018) - (2 posts)
Shades of Whitechapel: Dennis Nilsen - (1 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Kansas Physician Confirms Howard Report - (1 posts)
Visual Media: "Mysteries at the Museum" features JtR Museum - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Other Mysteries > A6 Murders

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #3521  
Old 10-27-2016, 12:35 AM
Sherlock Houses Sherlock Houses is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 434
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
I for one will not be affording any respect, conditional or otherwise, to James Hanratty.

Quelle surprise !

I'd never have guessed this judging from the content of your posts.
__________________
*************************************
"A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

"Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3522  
Old 10-27-2016, 02:25 AM
NickB NickB is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 900
Default

Sherlock,

In answer to your question, my source for Valerie telling Mackle the eyes were blue is Section 131 of the Appeal.

Woffinden saw Valerie’s statements and confirms that the one on 28th August contains the description “icy blue eyes”.

He says: “There is in fact no record of Storie ever having remarked or suggested that the gunman had ‘brown’ eyes, even though this formed part of the original circulated description. This point, which I believe was simply a mistake by Bedfordshire police, misled campaigners for many years.”

Turning to the matter of charging Hanratty, I don’t know how reliable you consider the Magee site but it suggests this was decided upon before he even left Blackpool.

Quote:
Friday 13 October
7:45 A.M.

Detective Superintendent C.H. Barron, head of Bedfordshire C.I.D. and Detective Chief Inspector Whiffen see Hanratty at Blackpool Police Station. Barron says to Hanratty:

‘At 2:40 p.m. on Wednesday, August 23, 1961 with Detective Superintendent Acott, I saw the dead body of Michael John Gregsten on a concrete strip of road by the side of the A6 at Deadman’s Hill. I am arresting you for the murder of Gregsten and you will be taken to Bedfordshire where you will later be charged.’

Barron then cautioned Hanratty and asked him, ‘Do you understand?’ Hanratty replied, ‘Yes.’
In court Sherrard asked why Hanratty had been arrested so early and Acott replied that this had to be done in Blackpool so he could be taken out of the custody of the local police and transferred to Bedford.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3523  
Old 10-27-2016, 02:42 AM
Graham Graham is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Midlands
Posts: 3,329
Default

Nick,

if it's the 'Musing About The A6 Murder' blog by Paul Magee that you refer to, this has been removed by the author.

Graham
__________________
We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3524  
Old 10-27-2016, 04:41 AM
louisa louisa is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 987
Default

Sherlock (Re: your post # 3520) - Thanks for that correction. As stated in my last post, it has been a while since I read my books on this case. I can see I will have to go back and have another look.

I remembered reading that pages were missing and it stands to reason that the police removed them for reasons of their own.

I strongly suspect that these missing pages were a confession that he had lied on oath.

I think we can be sure that if Acott got his hands on them they would have been destroyed immediately. He would not have kept them.
__________________
This is simply my opinion
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3525  
Old 10-27-2016, 05:48 AM
Sherlock Houses Sherlock Houses is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 434
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
I seem to recall Tony from the old thread stating that Storie selected the E49 coding for the eyes which depicts dark eyes. Both identikit photos depict the killer as having dark eyes.
Just a few hours after Storie was discovered in the notorious lay-by there was a lunchtime bulletin on ITV News in which Superintendent Richard Morgan of Biggleswade was interviewed. Among other things he stated that the man was about 30 years old and had brown eyes. Some people however would have you believe that this very experienced police officer could not read his notes correctly, simply because of a momentary hesitation (and then correction) about his mention of deep-set eyes.

I've located Tony's post [#3268] from the old A6 thread.
This was what he had to reveal...........

Quote:

Hello Graham,

I quote you from your post 3267:
“Not a lot of evidence to point to the A6 killer having brown eyes....is there?”

The first identikit picture compiled solely by Valerie and which looked remarkably like Mr Alphon, despite your own doubts about this was compiled and aided by the identikit expert.
As Vic says it was in black and white, I think they still may be nowadays, but the ‘coach’ would have explained to her the procedure. She had not done one before.
As you know there are different types of hair, noses, lips ears and such like. But colour is a feature even though it is in black and white; such as for the colour of the hair
Similarly eye colours can be selected and the ‘coach’ has to explain exactly what colour codings are referred to with the hair, lips and eyes.
There are 104 codings for eyes. E10 illustrates blue eyes. Valerie chose E49 which depicts dark eyes.
Dark eyes are not blue eyes by any stretch of the imagination.
Can you let me know how Valerie, very shortly after the murder when her memory was freshest, chose E49 eyes to be published to help in the search for the killer?
She simply must have told the expert coach the man had dark or brown eyes and not blue.

Tony.
__________________
*************************************
"A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

"Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3526  
Old 10-27-2016, 06:20 AM
Alfie Alfie is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 195
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
I've never read anywhere that Storie told Mackle that the killer's eyes were blue. I'm sure this will come as complete news to very many people. Do you have a source for this ?
Hawser: “The next description was given to Mr James Mackle ... He retired some seven years ago but recently – in August 1974 – some of his notes were discovered. These included the notes of his interviews with Miss Storie for the Identikit picture which she approved and which was one of the two issued ... He saw Miss Storie on 26th August 1961 and made these notes. He had to have several interviews with her. The relevant parts are as follows: 1st page: “Man 25/30 years approx; ht 5 ft 6 in maybe less; eyes blue ..."
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3527  
Old 10-27-2016, 06:37 AM
louisa louisa is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 987
Default

Do you have a link for that because I can't find reference to it anywhere on the net?
__________________
This is simply my opinion
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3528  
Old 10-27-2016, 08:28 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 613
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfie View Post
Hawser: “The next description was given to Mr James Mackle ... He retired some seven years ago but recently – in August 1974 – some of his notes were discovered. These included the notes of his interviews with Miss Storie for the Identikit picture which she approved and which was one of the two issued ... He saw Miss Storie on 26th August 1961 and made these notes. He had to have several interviews with her. The relevant parts are as follows: 1st page: “Man 25/30 years approx; ht 5 ft 6 in maybe less; eyes blue ..."
That accords with what is said in paragraph 131 of the Court of Appeal's judgement in 2002.

The evidence that Val told Mackle that the assailant's eyes were brown seems to come from the poster Tony, the very same Tony who posted that Hanratty admitted in evidence that the hankie in which the gun was found belonged to him. No one else seemed to have noticed that particular bit of evidence, in similar fashion no one else seems to have it chapter and verse that Valerie specified a coded eye section which equated with brown eyes.

I would therefore take Tony's pronouncements with a pinch of sodium chloride. Further, my recollection of Woffinden's book was that he was satisfied that Val was consistent with her 'blue eyes' description.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3529  
Old 10-27-2016, 09:31 AM
Graham Graham is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Midlands
Posts: 3,329
Default

Sherlock Houses has reproduced Tony's 'Identikit' post above - I have to admit I don't remember seeing it at the time. But I do very well remember his post in which he said that Hanratty in court identified the hankie as his; I thought at the time that this would be about the last thing a Hanratty supporter would want to hear. Why on earth would someone post such mis-information?

Incidentally, Woffinden also quotes a later editor of 'Police Review' as commenting that in his knowledge no-one was ever identified on the evidence of an Identikit.

Graham
__________________
We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

Last edited by Graham : 10-27-2016 at 09:39 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3530  
Old 10-27-2016, 09:38 AM
Alfie Alfie is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 195
Default

Louisa ...

Hawser report, page 21.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.