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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #151  
Old 10-09-2017, 10:17 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I'm not wrong. Hardly anyone has heard of the 1873-1889 torso murders, except weirdos like us.
We make up two (2) weirdos. Have a look at how many copies of Gordons and Trows book that have been sold. And more people than have bought the books have heard about the torso murders from other sources.

Neither you or me are going to be able to prove ourselves correct, other than in the sense that thousands and thousands of the books have been sold and so we know that thousands and thousands of people are aware of the murders - at least. Beyond that, we can´t tell.
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  #152  
Old 10-09-2017, 10:23 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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A little over a year, torso man struck again and an arm was found floating in some timbers owned by the John T. Chappel Company in Pimlico.
I've added the Pimlico datum to a map of where the various body parts and/or torsos were found. This is only approximate, and based on the equivalent map in Mei Trow's book, but it should do as a rough "scatter-plot" for where the parts were found. Please note that the East End is to the right of the blue dashed line:

Name:  torso map.jpg
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Given that the prevailing flow of the Thames is from left to right - and it's a strong river - it seems to me that by far the largest number of body parts were likely to have been deposited into the river in the west, either staying put or drifting further east until they were found.

For what it's worth, there seems to be a veritable cluster around the Battersea/Pimlico area, eight to ten miles away from Spitalfields. If these were all the work of one killer, then he seems to have very much favoured the western side of town, with the Pinchin Street torso being the main anomaly, possibly indicating that it was the work of a different killer anyway.
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  #153  
Old 10-09-2017, 10:26 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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You are right in your guess about the abdominal skin, Gareth. The Morning Advertiser clinches that:

"There was a greater portion of skin removed on the right side than on the left."

That´s a point for you, finally!

Anyhow, the abdomen was said to have been laid open entirely, and that says a lot. Moreover, as I keep saying, it matters not at all if there was a difference from Kelly (or Jackson) in this respect. It is - once again - the PRACTICE that matters. Otherwise, we should vote for five killers if five women have their nose tips cut off - but not in the exact same shape.

Last edited by Fisherman : 10-09-2017 at 10:32 AM.
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  #154  
Old 10-09-2017, 10:29 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I've added the Pimlico datum to a map of where the various body parts and/or torsos were found. This is only approximate, and based on the equivalent map in Mei Trow's book, but it should do as a rough "scatter-plot" for where the parts were found. Please note that the East End is to the right of the blue dashed line:

Attachment 18332

Given that the prevailing flow of the Thames is from left to right - and it's a strong river - it seems to me that by far the largest number of body parts were likely to have been deposited into the river in the west, either staying put or drifting further east until they were found.

For what it's worth, there seems to be a veritable cluster around the Battersea/Pimlico area, eight to ten miles away from Spitalfields. If these were all the work of one killer, then he seems to have very much favoured the western side of town, with the Pinchin Street torso being the main anomaly, possibly indicating that it was the work of a different killer anyway.
Or he floated his packages at high tide, when the river travels backwards and floating objects can go from East to West.

The problem is, we don´t know. On the whole, it looks like he was more likely to dump the parts from the Western parts of town. So if the Ripper and the torso killer were the same man, it - probably - predisposes that the Ripper had means to get to the Western parts of town.

And...?
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  #155  
Old 10-09-2017, 10:34 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
You are right in your guess about the abdominal skin, Gareth. The Morning Advertiser clinches that:

"There was a greater portion of skin removed on the right side than on the left."

That´s a point for you, finally!
One does one's best. Thanks, Fish.
Quote:
Anyhow, the abdomen was said to have been laid open entirely.
That was the Lancet guy, not Phillips, who wrote that. There was a very early (pre-inquest) report in The Star (8th Sept 1888) which says of Chapman that "her stomach had been completely ripped open", which is possibly where the Lancet writer got the idea.
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  #156  
Old 10-09-2017, 10:37 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Sam Flynn: One does one's best. Thanks, Fish.

The pleasure is all mine, I assure you.

That was the Lancet guy, not Phillips, who wrote that. There was a very early (pre-inquest) report in The Star (8th Sept 1888) which says of Chapman that "her stomach had been completely ripped open", which is possibly where the Lancet writer got the idea.

Once more, it is of no interest at all if the abdomen was 50, 70, or 90 per cent open. The practice only is of interest.
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  #157  
Old 10-09-2017, 10:39 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Or he floated his packages at high tide, when the river travels backwards and floating objects can go from East to West.
Not, I'd suggest, to that extent, unless they'd been in the river for weeks and weeks, which was not the case. I should add that, between the East End and Battersea, we're looking at approx 10 miles of fast-flowing river, so I doubt anything dumped in the East is going to drift that far West, at least not as consistently as we see here.
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On the whole, it looks like he was more likely to dump the parts from the Western parts of town
Indeed. Nice to agree with you again, Fish.
Quote:
So if the Ripper and the torso killer were the same man, it - probably - predisposes that the Ripper had means to get to the Western parts of town.

And...?
...Jack the Ripper operated on foot, in a very tight circle concentrated around the Spitalfields rookery. Why any man with easy access to transport, capable of travelling out West to dump body parts, would risk killing on foot in the open air, leaving bodies strewn on the roads and with the police breathing down his neck is beyond me.

On balance, I think it more likely that the torso killer(s) operated and/or lived in West London, with the Pinchin Street killer(s) the possible exception.
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 10-09-2017 at 10:46 AM.
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  #158  
Old 10-09-2017, 10:46 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Sam Flynn: Not, I'd suggest, to that extent, unless they'd been in the river for weeks and weeks. Which was not the case.

I´ve seen it argued that parts of the women could have travelled upwards, but I am not any specialist on the river - and we have almost no tide at all in Sweden, so I will take your word for it.

...Jack the Ripper operated on foot, in a very tight circle concentrated around the Spitalfields rookery. Why any man with easy access to transport, capable of travelling out west to dump body parts, would risk killing on foot in the open air, leaving bodies strewn on the roads and with the police breathing down his neck is beyond me.

That has been discussed before. A horse and cart is noisy and people will notice it. It will disenable flight through many passages. If the killer prioritized stealth and silence, he would be a fool to bring a horse and cart.
It´s another thing where we may hold different opinions, so let´s just say that there is nothing at all to tell us that since Jack operated on foot when killing in Whitechapel, he could not have had access to transport otherwise.

If we - for example - take a look at you-know-who, it applies that he walked to work - where he had a horse and cart.

Bazinga!
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  #159  
Old 10-09-2017, 10:59 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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On the whole, is not a lot of the arguments along the line "But would that not be strange?", "But the Ripper seems to have worked on foot!", "But the torso man seems to have been more to the West!" - arguments that are looking for possible obstacles.

In the end, they remain uninteresting since we know full well that the eviscerator who cut from ribs to pubes, who took out uteri, who took out colon parts, who cut the abdominal wall away in flaps, who stole rings from his victims, who was masterfully skilled with the knife actually DID manage to overcome these matters.

Last edited by Fisherman : 10-09-2017 at 11:13 AM.
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  #160  
Old 10-09-2017, 11:17 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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If the 1873 torso is part of the series, why did the killer wait 15 years before he murdered women on the street? How was he able to satiate his bloodlust for that long?
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