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  #11  
Old 05-04-2018, 08:47 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Hi SkiptotheEnd,

I feel a lot of it relies on if the driving rain that night delayed the beat officers at all? It was raining hard enough at 1:30 to keep Lawende and Company from leaving the Imperial Club for an extra four or five minutes.

In PC Harvey's testimony he states he was in Aldgate returning toward Duke Street when he heard George Morris blow his whistle. Based on what we know of Harvey's beat, that would likely place him between Mitre Street and Duke Street on Aldgate at murder time.

Watkins had left the square (prior to the murder) aprrox. 1:30. His beat took him between 10-14 minutes. That would place him very near the square at the estimated time of the murder (1:44 or 1:45ish). At 10 minutes he would have made the round and would have been leaving Mitre Square heading up King Street into St James Place. At 14 minutes he would have been in the square around the time of the murder.

Hi Jerry,

The rain may very well have an effect on watkins beat, i am assuming harvey arrives at Church passage after the rain stops.

This may well mean that his timing for his previous visit may not be 100% accurate.

Such would put a whole new perspective on events.


Steve
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  #12  
Old 05-06-2018, 09:47 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Hi Jerry,

The rain may very well have an effect on watkins beat, i am assuming harvey arrives at Church passage after the rain stops.

This may well mean that his timing for his previous visit may not be 100% accurate.

Such would put a whole new perspective on events.


Steve
Thanks Steve,

Harvey says he arrived at Chuch Passage about 1:42. It appears the rain subsided shortly after 1:30, so, yes, we can assume the rain was at least tolerable at that point. After leaving Church Passage PC Harvey would have passed the Post Office clock, made a right turn on Aldgate High Street and headed down to Leadenhall where he made an about face and headed back up Aldgate High to Houndsditch. It was during this short span of time that he heard the whistle from George Morris. He states it was when he was approaching Duke Street as I show in this map. (approx, blue circle) The yellow circle is the PO and the dotted line is his intended beat if he had not heard the whistle.

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  #13  
Old 05-07-2018, 06:11 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
I feel a lot of it relies on if the driving rain that night delayed the beat officers at all? It was raining hard enough at 1:30 to keep Lawende and Company from leaving the Imperial Club for an extra four or five minutes.
Hi Jerry,
Harvey says he had previously passed the Post Office clock at 1:28, so presumably this was when it was still raining (assuming the rain wasn't just a brief passing shower which started just as Lawende et al were about to leave the club)

Quote:
In PC Harvey's testimony he states he was in Aldgate returning toward Duke Street when he heard George Morris blow his whistle. Based on what we know of Harvey's beat, that would likely place him between Mitre Street and Duke Street on Aldgate at murder time.
Agreed. He was about to pass the PO again, which would make that lap of his beat approx 17-18 mins

Quote:
Watkins had left the square (prior to the murder) aprrox. 1:30. His beat took him between 10-14 minutes. That would place him very near the square at the estimated time of the murder (1:44 or 1:45ish). At 10 minutes he would have made the round and would have been leaving Mitre Square heading up King Street into St James Place. At 14 minutes he would have been in the square around the time of the murder.
I'm not sure what you mean here... wasn't 1:44-45 the time the murder was discovered, rather than the time it occurred? We know Watkins was in the square at this time, as he discovered Kate's body.
If Watkins had earlier patrolled the square around 1:30 it would have been raining, so he might perhaps have sheltered a couple of minutes in St James' Passage, as Bridewell suggests, but would presumably have resumed his round and left the square back into Mitre Street just as Lawende left the club and saw Eddowes loitering at the entrance to Church Passage.

Incidentally, is there any mention of rain at the Berner Street murder site at this time? It was only a mile or so away, didn't the rain stop there by 11:30?
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  #14  
Old 05-07-2018, 09:23 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Hi Jerry,
Harvey says he had previously passed the Post Office clock at 1:28, so presumably this was when it was still raining (assuming the rain wasn't just a brief passing shower which started just as Lawende et al were about to leave the club)



Agreed. He was about to pass the PO again, which would make that lap of his beat approx 17-18 mins



I'm not sure what you mean here... wasn't 1:44-45 the time the murder was discovered, rather than the time it occurred? We know Watkins was in the square at this time, as he discovered Kate's body.
If Watkins had earlier patrolled the square around 1:30 it would have been raining, so he might perhaps have sheltered a couple of minutes in St James' Passage, as Bridewell suggests, but would presumably have resumed his round and left the square back into Mitre Street just as Lawende left the club and saw Eddowes loitering at the entrance to Church Passage.

Incidentally, is there any mention of rain at the Berner Street murder site at this time? It was only a mile or so away, didn't the rain stop there by 11:30?
Hi Joshua,

I was trying to make a point where Watkins should have been based on his own testimony.

That beat takes twelve or fourteen minutes. I had been patrolling the beat continually from ten o'clock at night until one o'clock on Sunday morning

then:

[Coroner] Had anything excited your attention during those hours? - No.
[Coroner] Or any person? - No. I passed through Mitre-square at 1.30 on the Sunday morning. I had my lantern alight and on - fixed to my belt. According to my usual practice, I looked at the different passages and corners.
[Coroner] At half-past one did anything excite your attention? - No.
[Coroner] Did you see anyone about? - No.
[Coroner] Could any people have been about that portion of the square without your seeing them? - No.


So what happened at 1:00 that he wasn't continually patrolling his beat? Rain? He makes no mention of the rain. Nor does anyone else involved except Lawende and Company. No mention of Kate having wet clothing, no puddles in Mitre Square.

Joseph Lawende-I was at the Imperial Club in the company of Mr. Joseph Levy and Mr. Harry Harris. It was raining and we could not leave the premises.

That's a pretty hard rain if they "could not leave the premises".

By what did you fix the time? - By seeing the club clock and my own watch. It was five minutes after the half hour when we came out, and to the best of my belief it was twenty five to two when we saw these persons.

So at 1:35 Lawende sees the couple in the Passage. If it was raining hard, where did they come from? We assume by Watkins testimony that he had left the square by now. He stated he had no disturbances so his beat should have taken "twelve or fourteen minutes". That puts him back in the square roughly between 1:42-1:44 ( I know Victorian timing is an issue but several were using clocks and watches on this night). He was approaching from Mitre Street so if the killer left that way, he surely would have been seen by the beat officer, Watkins? So from 1:35 to 1:44 was the timing for the couple to walk into the square and murder Kate. For the killer to add extra cuts and take a kidney in the essence of time was foolish unless he knew when the PC would return to the square.

Now for Morris.

At half-past 1 o'clock Watkins handed a can of tea to the watchman at Messrs. Kearley and Tongue's, tea merchants, named George James Morris, a naval pensioner, telling him to make it hot in 10 minutes' time, when he would then be round again. Having made the circuit of the square, Watkins left, paraded his beat, and returned at a quarter to 2.

A juror: How long had your door been ajar before Watkins knocked? - Only about two minutes, while I was sweeping.

Using the timing of all this, the door was open at 1:43 or so. 1:35 to 1:43 or about 8 minutes for the killer to complete his work and escape. That's IF the couple seen by Lawende included Kate and IF they got to the Square immediately after the sighting by Lawende.
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  #15  
Old 05-08-2018, 06:33 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Hi Joshua,

I was trying to make a point where Watkins should have been based on his own testimony.
Thanks JD, gotcha. Did Watkins make any reference to seeing a clock or checking the time on his rounds, or was he backdating the time he was last in the square from when he found the body (when we can assume he would have taken a note of the time) basee on his average lap time of 12-14 minutes?

Quote:
That beat takes twelve or fourteen minutes. I had been patrolling the beat continually from ten o'clock at night until one o'clock on Sunday morning
R
then:

[Coroner] Had anything excited your attention during those hours? - No.
[Coroner] Or any person? - No. I passed through Mitre-square at 1.30 on the Sunday morning. I had my lantern alight and on - fixed to my belt. According to my usual practice, I looked at the different passages and corners.
[Coroner] At half-past one did anything excite your attention? - No.
[Coroner] Did you see anyone about? - No.
[Coroner] Could any people have been about that portion of the square without your seeing them? - No.


So what happened at 1:00 that he wasn't continually patrolling his beat?
Some reports say from 10:00 to 1:30, so I would think the 1:00 reference is just a misreporting.

Quote:
Rain? He makes no mention of the rain. Nor does anyone else involved except Lawende and Company. No mention of Kate having wet clothing, no puddles in Mitre Square.
Mmm, strange that. But witnesses weren't there to set the atmosphere, so presumably details such as the weather weren't mentioned without reason, such as delaying a departure. Will have to scour the reports for mentions of rain.

Quote:
Joseph Lawende-I was at the Imperial Club in the company of Mr. Joseph Levy and Mr. Harry Harris. It was raining and we could not leave the premises.

That's a pretty hard rain if they "could not leave the premises".
Possibly. Or they just didn't want to get wet. I'd wait a couple of minutes if it looked like it might blow over soon.

Quote:
By what did you fix the time? - By seeing the club clock and my own watch. It was five minutes after the half hour when we came out, and to the best of my belief it was twenty five to two when we saw these persons.

So at 1:35 Lawende sees the couple in the Passage. If it was raining hard, where did they come from? We assume by Watkins testimony that he had left the square by now. He stated he had no disturbances so his beat should have taken "twelve or fourteen minutes". That puts him back in the square roughly between 1:42-1:44 ( I know Victorian timing is an issue but several were using clocks and watches on this night). He was approaching from Mitre Street so if the killer left that way, he surely would have been seen by the beat officer, Watkins? So from 1:35 to 1:44 was the timing for the couple to walk into the square and murder Kate. For the killer to add extra cuts and take a kidney in the essence of time was foolish unless he knew when the PC would return to the square.
Hmm. Lawende references two time sources so that at least should be fairly accurate, you'd think.
Harvey estimated he patrolled Church Passage at 1:42, and Morris opened his door about that time too. So I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of these are what led the killer to exit the scene. I suspect sound would have been Jack's primary warning of approach, rather than knowing the exact timing of beats, and Harvey's footsteps echoing along the passage toward him may have signalled it was time to scram. Watkins, I estimate, would have been around Leadenhall St at the time, so out of sight of anyone leaving the square via Mitre Street.

Quote:
Now for Morris.

At half-past 1 o'clock Watkins handed a can of tea to the watchman at Messrs. Kearley and Tongue's, tea merchants, named George James Morris, a naval pensioner, telling him to make it hot in 10 minutes' time, when he would then be round again. Having made the circuit of the square, Watkins left, paraded his beat, and returned at a quarter to 2.

A juror: How long had your door been ajar before Watkins knocked? - Only about two minutes, while I was sweeping.
I know I've heard the tale of the teapot before, but do you have the source? It doesn't seem to be mentioned in the inquest reports. Is it just a bit of press colour? You'd think a tea warehouse would be able supply a cup of tea, rather than the PC having to provide his own! And according to the Daily News at least, Morris was specifically asked if he'd seen Watkins before [the body was discovered] on that night and he said no. Also, wasn't Morris an ex Met PC, rather than ex- navy? I suppose he could have been both, though.

Quote:
Using the timing of all this, the door was open at 1:43 or so. 1:35 to 1:43 or about 8 minutes for the killer to complete his work and escape. That's IF the couple seen by Lawende included Kate and IF they got to the Square immediately after the sighting by Lawende.
Mmm, sounds about right. But there's a lot of "if"s involved all round!
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  #16  
Old 05-08-2018, 06:53 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Thanks Joshua,

Here's a rain reference for that evening.

Lloyds
Sept. 30, 1888


In London has the most uncertainty prevailed and late last evening the heaviest downpour of the week occurred.

The reference for the can of tea could very well be a press coloration. I found that reference here.

East London Advertiser
Saturday, 6 October 1888.

Last edited by jerryd : 05-08-2018 at 07:08 AM.
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  #17  
Old 05-08-2018, 08:33 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Thanks Joshua,

Here's a rain reference for that evening.

Lloyds
Sept. 30, 1888


In London has the most uncertainty prevailed and late last evening the heaviest downpour of the week occurred.

The reference for the can of tea could very well be a press coloration. I found that reference here.

East London Advertiser
Saturday, 6 October 1888.
Cheers.

There was about 1/4" of rain in Whitechapel that night with 100% cloud cover, according to the weather report here;

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/weather.html

General London report said;
" Dull morning; fine day; sudden heavy rain at "9.5p.m." lasting till after midnight"
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  #18  
Old 05-11-2018, 09:08 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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A few mentions of rain in Berner St, for what they're worth;

Dr Blackwell said at the inquest "it was a very mild night and was not raining at the time. There was no wet on the deceased's clothes". He arrived at the club at 1:16

Matthew Packer said in his Evening News interview that the couple he sold grapes to stood opposite the club in the rain until sometime after midnight. He also says it was because of the rain and consequent lack of trade that he shut up shop at this time.

There are several reasons not to trust his tale entirely, not least PC Smith, who said "to the best of my recollection, it rained very little after 11pm".

And William Marshall, asked about his sighting (at appprox 11:45pm);
"Did it not rain then?"
"No, it did not rain until nearly 3 o'clock"
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