Same motive = same killer

[Sam Flynn]

What on earth does "uterus eviscerating serialist" mean?

How many Torso victims were eviscerated?

How many Torso victims had their uteri removed?

[Fisherman]

My dear Christer
Flaps can mean anything, argue as much as you want. It matters not.

Make your suggestions, give your theories they remain just that, and because they are not impossible they remain POSSIBLE.

After all these months, not one inch of movement, not one extra shread of evidence.

Steve

There is all the evidence needed already, it´s just that some are in denial.

If taking the abdominal wall away in large flaps - regardless of how they are shaped- is something that is practically unheard of, how do you propose to try and make me believe that two killers did it? Simultaneously? In Victorian London?

Explain, please!

By the way, flaps can not mean anything at all. You should know that, you old flap, you!

[Sam Flynn]

Flap-taking?

Presumably the "flap-taking" killer of Annie Chapman was different from the "multiple-belly-cutting" killer of Polly Nichols, who in turn was different from the "zigzag-cut-making" killer of Catherine Eddowes, and the "completely-lay-bare-the-abdomen" killer of Mary Kelly?

[Fisherman]

What on earth does "uterus eviscerating serialist" mean?

How many Torso victims were eviscerated?

How many Torso victims had their uteri removed?

"Uterus eviscerating serialist" means a serial killer who take out the uterus from a victim.

We can´t tell how many of the torso victims were eviscerated. One is beyond doubt, two more can have been eviscerated - at least.

The same goes for the uterus part.

Once we KNOW that the killer was into eviscerating, the best bet is that we have three eviscerated torso victims, at least.

[Fisherman]

What on earth is "flap-taking"?

Presumably the "flap-taking" killer of Annie Chapman was different from the "multiple-belly-cutting" killer of Polly Nichols, who in turn was different from the "zigzag-cut-making" killer of Catherine Eddowes, and the "completely-lay-bare-the-abdomen" killer of Mary Kelly?

Chapman and Kelly are the only ones where we may be certain of the same killer, but it is more than likely that all four were Ripper victimes. The more specific the damage, the likelier it was the same killer.

Chapman and Kelly make for a 100 per cent certainty, the other two are +90 per cent certainties.

Tell me why you prefer Chapman/Nichols to Chapman/Jackson, Gareth. I am still waiting for that answer.

[Fisherman]

As I keep saying, if you don´t believe me, ask profilers and policemen. They should know, right?

[Debra A]

Hi El

Just off the top of my head, the drs description of the abdominal sections removed from Chapman, Kelly and Jackson all refer to it as "large flaps". Not sure if you could get any less "vague similarities" !!

I also only was alerted to the possibility to the similarities between the series via the research done by Debra Arif-similarities of post mortem mutilations of the Torso victims above and beyond what was needed for dismemberment only in general, and to the similarities specifically to the aforementioned flaps of skin removed from chapman, Kelly and Jackson.
as far as I Know, Debra is one of the most objective researchers Ive seen on here and has no "suspect to fit in".

Hi Abby
And I only ever mentioned the abdominal flaps or slips (you would call them slips if you were selecting language that deliberately diminishes their size in the mind of readers and flaps when you want to balance that choice of wording as both descriptions were used) in the case of Elizabeth Jackson because certain people were claiming that the removal of flaps of skin from the abdomen was a signature of JTR.
I asked what that meant in the case of Jackson and was met with stony, silence time after time. Now people want to argue the toss. It's fascinating..

[Herlock Sholmes]

Chapman and Kelly are the only ones where we may be certain of the same killer, but it is more than likely that all four were Ripper victimes. The more specific the damage, the likelier it was the same killer.

Chapman and Kelly make for a 100 per cent certainty, the other two are +90 per cent certainties.

Tell me why you prefer Chapman/Nichols to Chapman/Jackson, Gareth. I am still waiting for that answer.

Fish, aren’t there other factors that might have a bearing on any acts of mutilation. I’m thinking, for example, what if a killer had some kind of injury that might have hampered what he was able to achieve? Surely a simple fact like this could make the difference between a murder being identified as part of a series or by a certain killer. Being interrupted or forced to flee because of hearing footsteps? Or a knife breaking for example. I’m just saying that outside forces could have an impact on the outcome leading to an incorrect conclusion.

All I’m saying is that similarities can result from chance occurring when someone hacks around with a knife. To be honest of my bugbears is when people (and I’m not accusing you of this Fish ) have an in-built resistance to the idea that coincidences can occur.

Just a question for my own clarification about ‘flaps.’ Are we just talking about loose pieces of flesh on the walls of the stomach? Wouldn’t these just be random slashed created in the process of doing as much damage as possible? Surely a flap of skin is a flap of skin?

[Sam Flynn]

Tell me why you prefer Chapman/Nichols to Chapman/Jackson, Gareth.

I don't know what you mean, but I think I can work it out. The short answer is that what happened to Nichols is very similar in time, place and execution to what happened to Chapman. What happened to both women is dissimilar to what happened to Jackson.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby
And I only ever mentioned the abdominal flaps or slips (you would call them slips if you were selecting language that deliberately diminishes their size in the mind of readers and flaps when you want to balance that choice of wording as both descriptions were used) in the case of Elizabeth Jackson because certain people were claiming that the removal of flaps of skin from the abdomen was a signature of JTR.
I asked what that meant in the case of Jackson and was met with stony, silence time after time. Now people want to argue the toss. It's fascinating..

Hi Debra. : )
Yes it is and I remember the times when if the subject was broached if they could be the same man one would be ridiculed mercilessly!

Your excellent research and input is much appreciated!!

[Abby Normal]

Just for context I saw a statistical list of sexual homicide characteristics (I think compiled by the fbi) listed by type of damage done to the victim like sexual assault, post mortem mutilation that got very detailed including things like head removal, eye gouging etc. and the last and rarest one was internal organ removal and the percentage was something like three percent.

That always struck me not only how rare the rippers sig was but that to have two of these creatures lurking around in roughly the same time and place is just too much a coincidence for me.

[John Wheat]

If Jack and The Torso Killer were one and the same why no dismemberment of Kelly?

[Abby Normal]

If Jack and The Torso Killer were one and the same why no dismemberment of Kelly?

Hi John
That’s a great question, and a tick mark against being the same man in my book no question.

I would only say that perhaps both internal organ removal and body part removal (along with general post mortem mutilation)were both part of the killers thing and perhaps at that time he only took the heart. Also perhaps limbs may have been too bulky to try and remove and get away with?

The reverse of that why removal of Kelly’s abdomen flesh in large flaps like Jackson?

[Abby Normal]

That's the whole point Abby, Flaps is vague, it means different things to different people.
It's not an objective term.

If Debra ever does a book on the torsos it would possibly help. However i am far from convinced there is conclusive evidence. Maybe Christer at some stage will supply it.



STEVE

Hi el
Well to me “large flaps” is not vague at all. I mean that’s exactly how the doctors described it.

So you have a killer in Chapman Kelly and Jackson who having murdered their prostitute victims, probably rusing them as a MO to get them to a secluded place, is now conducting post mortem mutilation which involves gaining access to the inside of the abdomen to take out internal organs by cutting away the stomach flesh in large flaps.

I mean cmon. If you don’t see major similarities there well so be it. But I do, in spades.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi el
Well to me “large flaps” is not vague at all. I mean that’s exactly how the doctors described it.

So you have a killer in Chapman Kelly and Jackson who having murdered their prostitute victims, probably rusing them as a MO to get them to a secluded place, is now conducting post mortem mutilation which involves gaining access to the inside of the abdomen to take out internal organs by cutting away the stomach flesh in large flaps.

I mean cmon. If you don’t see major similarities there well so be it. But I do, in spades.

To try dispel once and for all this misguided belief that you Christer and several others have that the Thames Torsos were as a result of homicides, and were all the work of the same killer who killed the women in Whitechapel. I have set out below brief details of these torso victims which clearly show that at the inquests there was no evidence put forward to suggest any were murdered, despite verdicts of wilful murder being recorded in 2 cases.

I have also included extracts from Dr Biggs a modern day forensic pathologist who has studied the post mortem and inquest testimony, given by the Victorian Doctors.

1873 Torso
No specific cause of death identified
Verdict- Found dead

Whitehall Torso Sept 1888
No specific cause of death identified
Verdict- Found dead

Elizabeth Jackson June 1888
No specific cause of death identified
Verdict Wilful murder by jury !!!!!!!!!!!!!

How could a coroner allow a verdict of wilful murder, when there is no specific cause of death identified in the proceedings? The verdict should have been found dead/open verdict

Pinchin St Torso Sept 11th 1889
No specific cause of death identified
Verdict Wilful murder by jury !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I say again, how could a coroner allow a verdict of wilful murder, when there is no specific cause of death identified in the proceedings? The verdict should have been found dead/open verdict

Dr Biggs comments from reviewing inquest testimony on this specific torso

“I am also perplexed by their cause of death! ‘Syncope’ is just a word denoting fainting or collapse. In the olden days, words such as ‘exhaustion’, ‘shock’ or ‘syncope’ were used as a ‘cause of death’ and were not questioned. We couldn’t get away with that now! It sounds like they don’t actually know the cause of death, but they are reluctant to admit it. These days it is much safer to say that the cause of death is unascertained unless you are sure of something you can back up”

Dr Biggs general observations on all the torsos

"If you look at a series of unrelated dismembered bodies, you will see some startling similarities between them. This does not mean you can conclude that they were carried out in the same way / with the same tool(s) / by the same person(s). When disposing of a body people (even without prior knowledge or instruction) tend to adopt very similar strategies for dividing up the body to make it more manageable for concealment / transportation. The finished results end up looking very similar!"

"Despite there being apparently a lot of information about these torsos, there is actually little pathological information to determine how they died (or when) so I can’t shed any light on that side of things, I’m afraid. Dismemberment isn’t that uncommon, and when it is seen it is usually (but not always!) the result of an attempt to conceal a homicide. Abortionists tended not to worry so much about concealing the fact that death occurred, but just made themselves scarce, so they couldn’t be linked to the woman after she was found (intact). However, I guess that if they carried out the abortions within their own property and the victims died, then I can understand the need to dispose of the body by dismemberment"

Dr Biggs full assessment on both the Whitechapel Murders, and The Torsos can be found in my book “Jack the Ripper-The Real Truth”

http://www.trevormarriott.co.uk/jack-ripper-real-truth/