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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Ann Nichols

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  #1  
Old 10-17-2018, 09:23 AM
barnflatwyngarde barnflatwyngarde is offline
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Default What Direction Was Polly Travelling When She Was Killed?

Something that has been bothering me for a while re the Nichol’s murder is, what direction was she travelling when she was killed?

We know that Emily Holland saw Polly head up Whitechapel Road about 2.30am, hoping to earn enough money to pay for a bed.

I am leaning toward the possibility (no stronger than that) that Polly managed to snare herself a client, and that they found themselves in Bucks Row, presumably to conclude the deal.

Polly was found at exactly the point where residential housing starts.

Why didn’t the killer escort Polly eastwards toward, what appears to be, factory buildings, before killing her?

Why kill her just as you approach houses?

Is it possible that the killer chose that location because it was close to his home or bolt hole?

I know that there are many different ways to interpret my thoughts above, but I would welcome any views as to why people think she was killed so close to houses, with the clear risk of being heard or seen by someone.
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  #2  
Old 10-17-2018, 09:33 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnflatwyngarde View Post
Something that has been bothering me for a while re the Nichol’s murder is, what direction was she travelling when she was killed?

We know that Emily Holland saw Polly head up Whitechapel Road about 2.30am, hoping to earn enough money to pay for a bed.

I am leaning toward the possibility (no stronger than that) that Polly managed to snare herself a client, and that they found themselves in Bucks Row, presumably to conclude the deal.

Polly was found at exactly the point where residential housing starts.

Why didn’t the killer escort Polly eastwards toward, what appears to be, factory buildings, before killing her?

Why kill her just as you approach houses?

Is it possible that the killer chose that location because it was close to his home or bolt hole?

I know that there are many different ways to interpret my thoughts above, but I would welcome any views as to why people think she was killed so close to houses, with the clear risk of being heard or seen by someone.

Good questions indeed,

There are several possibilities, maybe Browns yard was normally open, or was expected to be, many have suggested this over the years.

Another posssibilty not mentioned often is that the position gave protection from being viewed from the west by the board school. anyone approaching from that direction, particulary a police officer may well have been heard, and the killer able to escape before said officer arrived.
And if approched from the East, there would be plenty of time to make an exit to the west, without it seeming obviously that they were fleeing.

And of course the same would apply to Nichols if she wished to use an area from which she and her client could depart without being stopped.

Of course the possibility that the killer had a bolt hole nearby cannot be rejected.


Steve
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  #3  
Old 10-17-2018, 09:47 AM
barnflatwyngarde barnflatwyngarde is offline
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"Another posssibilty not mentioned often is that the position gave protection from being viewed from the west by the board school. anyone approaching from that direction, particulary a police officer may well have been heard, and the killer able to escape before said officer arrived.
And if approched from the East, there would be plenty of time to make an exit to the west, without it seeming obviously that they were fleeing.
"

Yeah, good points Steve, but it just bothers me as illogical that he chose to commit murder practically outside someones house.

I sometimes think that these "little" niggles in the case are often overlooked while "big" bold theories generate all the debate.

I personally think that the small details in the case are the most compelling and problematic.
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  #4  
Old 10-17-2018, 09:48 AM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Polly Nichols was most likely murdered in Winthrop Street.

There was access to Brown's Yard from Winthrop Street and, therefore, access to Bucks Row.

The gates to Brown's Yard opened inwards.

What better way to throw people off the scent than to bring Nichols from Winthrop Street, through Brown's Yard, check the coast was clear, then dump her body right outside the gates in Bucks Row. Close the gates from inside Brown's Yard, return to Winthrop Street and you're home and dry.
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  #5  
Old 10-17-2018, 09:51 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnflatwyngarde View Post
"Another posssibilty not mentioned often is that the position gave protection from being viewed from the west by the board school. anyone approaching from that direction, particulary a police officer may well have been heard, and the killer able to escape before said officer arrived.
And if approched from the East, there would be plenty of time to make an exit to the west, without it seeming obviously that they were fleeing.
"

Yeah, good points Steve, but it just bothers me as illogical that he chose to commit murder practically outside someones house.

I sometimes think that these "little" niggles in the case are often overlooked while "big" bold theories generate all the debate.

I personally think that the small details in the case are the most compelling and problematic.

well one possibility, and not one i am about to push is that Browns yard was lockable from the inside, and that the killer may well have simply been there.
indeed it was simon wood i think who suggested that it may have been possible to enter Winthrop from here, if it was not Simon I apologise here and now.


Yes the small points are often overlooked, in favour of sweeping theories.


Steve

Last edited by Elamarna : 10-17-2018 at 09:54 AM.
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  #6  
Old 10-17-2018, 09:53 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Polly Nichols was most likely murdered in Winthrop Street.

There was access to Brown's Yard from Winthrop Street and, therefore, access to Bucks Row.

The gates to Brown's Yard opened inwards.

What better way to throw people off the scent than to bring Nichols from Winthrop Street, through Brown's Yard, check the coast was clear, then dump her body right outside the gates in Bucks Row. Close the gates from inside Brown's Yard, return to Winthrop Street and you're home and dry.
Posts crossed Simon, you seem very confident of this, from the various maps, it is not clear that there was access to Browns Yard from Winthrop, but such cannot be ruled out.

Can i ask if you have any definitive proof of it? I give it as an option in the part of the work on Escape routes. I wonder if I have missed something?

Steve

Last edited by Elamarna : 10-17-2018 at 09:56 AM.
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  #7  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:01 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Polly Nichols was most likely murdered in Winthrop Street.

There was access to Brown's Yard from Winthrop Street and, therefore, access to Bucks Row.

The gates to Brown's Yard opened inwards.

What better way to throw people off the scent than to bring Nichols from Winthrop Street, through Brown's Yard, check the coast was clear, then dump her body right outside the gates in Bucks Row. Close the gates from inside Brown's Yard, return to Winthrop Street and you're home and dry.
Was there, Simon - through the 'stores' presumably?

Of course, you'd have to sneak past a sleeping Mulshaw. And if you did, you might want to wake him later, so he wasn't found snoozing by the police.

BTW, I owe you a debt of gratitude for starting the Harrison, Barber thread over on JTRF. Thank you!
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Old 10-17-2018, 10:06 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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And my post crossed with yours, Steve.

I vaguely remember someone finding a land tax record for the stores. Later photos certainly show a door and window in Winthrop Street, but it would only make sense for there have a door on the other side, into Browns, if the stores and the stable yard were in the same ownership.
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Old 10-17-2018, 10:06 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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I think the answer is that he was less likely to be seen murdering her on Buck's row than on Whitechapel Rd., or Old Montague St. or Vallance Rd. Buck's row was closer than crossing Whitechapel Rd., into other areas but if he was on that side, he could have turned down Vallance Rd, south and turn into one of those Buck's row type side streets.
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  #10  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:08 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Was there, Simon - through the 'stores' presumably?

Of course, you'd have to sneak past a sleeping Mulshaw. And if you did, you might want to wake him later, so he wasn't found snoozing by the police.

BTW, I owe you a debt of gratitude for starting the Harrison, Barber thread over on JTRF. Thank you!

If there was a route to Winthrop it gives a different perspective completely.

Mulshaw was by his own admission often asleep.
Who was the man he claimed woke him? its often assumed it was one of the slaughter men, but given he was here fairly regular, one might expect him to know them, at least by sight, and say so.

Steve
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