Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Batman 31 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by harry 47 minutes ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Batman 3 hours ago.
Scene of the Crimes: The Nihilist Club ie. Berner Street - by MrBarnett 3 hours ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Michael W Richards 3 hours ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Michael W Richards 3 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - (39 posts)
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - (6 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Kansas Physician Confirms Howard Report - (4 posts)
General Discussion: Ripper was several people... - (3 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: The Nihilist Club ie. Berner Street - (1 posts)
General Discussion: Eddowes' Shawl - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Catherine Eddowes

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-03-2018, 01:27 AM
Batman Batman is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,593
Default Mitre Sq., arranged meeting scenarios

I am wondering if it possible that JtR was a person who met with Eddowes and gave her money so that she could get drunk with him but got so totally smashed that she collapsed in public before he could get her into any secluded area.

This would broker the possibility that he was in the crowd that gathered around watching what would happen to her. When the PC arrived he then probably knew she was going to the drunk tank at Bishopsgate and figured she would be in there for quite a while. He may have even asked the office where they were taking her. This was at 8:30 p.m

Vexed and drunk JtR went away planning to come back and hang around Bishopsgate area waiting to see if she would be let out.

Two hours and thirty minutes later Stride is seen with some men at different times. Then somewhere between 12:30 and 12:50 he strikes Stride. He is already angered that he has failed to hit Eddowes and is decompensating, making mistakes. He heads back towards Bishopsgate to see if Eddowes is out. This would explain why he headed that exact direction.

He arrives a few minutes after Eddowes has been let back out and finds her in the area. She meets up with him again and goes with him despite knowing she is in for a good hiding for being out so late, she also knows that money is important to put shoes on her partner who sold them that morning. This would explain how she would have known him and gone with him, because of the earlier meeting.

Anyway, the possibility here is JtR was in the crowd as Eddowes was being dragged off to the drunk tank.

There is a missing portion of time for Eddowes before she was found drunk. Where she was, how she got money for drink, would be big questions to ask.

Another scenario is that the arrangement to meet with Eddowes was done while she was in the cell. That, someone, was there and agreed to meet her when they both got out. However, Eddowes doesn't indicate she was going to a meeting but was late and better get home.

We must also consider the possibility that JtR didn't meet Eddowes but was in the crowd wondering how to get to this drunk woman at some stage. However the familiarity she expressed with JtR when seen by Lewende, suggests some prior comfort being around this person, especially when she told her partner she wasn't going to fall into the hands of the Ripper.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-03-2018, 01:54 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 11,169
Default

Surely he'd just go and find someone else? Besides, Jack doesn't strike me as the type to be out stalking in the late afternoon or early evening when Eddowes would have started drinking before being taken to the cells.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-03-2018, 02:30 AM
Batman Batman is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,593
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Surely he'd just go and find someone else? Besides, Jack doesn't strike me as the type to be out stalking in the late afternoon or early evening when Eddowes would have started drinking before being taken to the cells.
I wrote he went off and found Stride.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-03-2018, 02:42 AM
Busy Beaver Busy Beaver is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Lothian
Posts: 127
Default

"Surely he'd just go and find someone else? Besides, Jack doesn't strike me as the type to be out stalking in the late afternoon or early evening when Eddowes would have started drinking before being taken to the cells."

Agreed Sam.

A lot of things hinge on how we "see" Jack. Is he the joker, who meets up with his victims, talks & drinks with them and later on kills them. Or his he a man who casually walks down the street, is approached by the victim, goes to a dark area and then kills quite quickly and ferociously with no small talk in between, or in the case of Eddowes whilst she's poking his chest, a silent nod or a cunning smile?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-03-2018, 02:51 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 11,169
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
I wrote he went off and found Stride.
A few hours later, and in a different part of the East End? There were loads of pubs, and potential victims in between. Why bother going back to find Eddowes specifically, when there was no knowing when, or if, she'd be released from custody?
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

Last edited by Sam Flynn : 10-03-2018 at 02:54 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-03-2018, 03:02 AM
Batman Batman is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,593
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Beaver View Post

Agreed Sam.

A lot of things hinge on how we "see" Jack. Is he the joker, who meets up with his victims, talks & drinks with them and later on kills them. Or his he a man who casually walks down the street, is approached by the victim, goes to a dark area and then kills quite quickly and ferociously with no small talk in between, or in the case of Eddowes whilst she's poking his chest, a silent nod or a cunning smile?
What you are asking is if JtR is an organized or disorganized offender. What we know about JtR is that he is both semi-organized and semi-disorganized. He must be organized to have a knife with him. He must be organized to be able to carry away things from his victim, even body parts. He must be organized enough to know his escape routes. Therefore there is no reason not to believe he would also organize and plan places and possibly people he would hit. He may have even been with these unfortunates before. It is extremely common for many serial killers of 'prostitutes' not to kill each one they meet or kill them the first time they meet them. JtR could have been every bit the 'John' that he was a serial killer. He could have well been known to them.

Someone like JtR at that time would have been always stalking when he could, always planning when could, always thinking about the murders when he could. It was have consumed him.

It is very interesting that Eddowes gave her name as Mary Ann Kelly and JtRs next victim was one middle name different.

Not to mention all the links to Dorset St.,
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-03-2018, 03:09 AM
Batman Batman is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,593
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
A few hours later, and in a different part of the East End? There were loads of pubs, and potential victims in between. Why bother going back to find Eddowes specifically, when there was no knowing when, or if, she'd be released from custody?
It's a 15 min walk there from where Eddowes was found drunk. There is no reason why he didn't explore possible victims everywhere and didn't get the opportunity until he came upon Stride. No doubt he would be stalking. Why should stalking for a few hours be an issue? Many serial killers claim the stalking itself is satisfying enough... for a while. Serial killers have done it plenty. Rapists also. One rape doesn't work out and they immediately go off and find someone else. Serial killers that have targetted places have often switched to another nearby, such as a neighbour, because they have built up themselves to do something there and then. It often around these times that they make mistakes. The word is decompensation. An example of decompensation leading to capture is Jeffery Dahmer.

He missed Eddowes and made a mistake with Stride. Schwartz even saw him. So in a state of decompensation he decides it is less risky to get back out of the area and heads towards the drunk tank to see if Eddowes was out yet. He didn't have to know she would be in or out. Just hang around awhile, stalk more and see if she shows up.

Obviously he could know very well how these drunk tanks work being experienced with them. If she didn't show then he would move on.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-03-2018, 03:25 AM
Busy Beaver Busy Beaver is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Lothian
Posts: 127
Default

What you are asking is if JtR is an organized or disorganized offender.

Not quite Batman, more his personality- was he jovial and BBF to begin with and then later on turned killer, or was he the type that once he had a potential victim beside him was he a full on killer, no friends stuff or any small talk- straight in for the kill.

If Eddowes thought she knew the killer, why did she not mention it to one of the Policemen on duty in the cells? The PC who let her go was engaged in a bit of small talk with Kate before she left. I'm sure he would have listened quite attentively to every word Kate said and asked her more questions. If Kate was so sure, she could have been kept in the cells over night, or walked home accompanied by a PC for her own safety or given some other "protection". It was a shame that she took matters into her own hands.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-03-2018, 07:30 AM
Batman Batman is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,593
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Beaver View Post
If Kate was so sure, she could have been kept in the cells over night, or walked home accompanied by a PC for her own safety or given some other "protection". It was a shame that she took matters into her own hands.
Why she should be afraid of someone who was giving her either money to buy the drink or giving her drink itself? Her partner is shoeless.

All that I am suggesting up til this point is that he was getting her drunk to take her somewhere secluded but by the time they hit fresh air she went down, which may have even saved her life for the time being.

Maybe she did mention it to the PC. I have already pointed out the possibility that JtR was in the crowd watching what will happen next. However, why should he be a suspicious person at this stage? Just a drunk woman being plied drink by a drunk man. Another day in Whitechapel.

There is nothing remarkable about the incident other than her getting drunk so there would be no cause for her to be concerned or for the PC on duty either.

There is plenty of time for all this happen also. Out one late afternoon, meets Eddowes, she gets drunk, he plans to take her somewhere, she collapses, he goes off to find someone else, finds Stride, he partially fails to commit his signature on her (harvesting and mutilation) and then goes back to see if Eddowes is out yet. Hangs around awhile and eventually sees her.

In short, there doesn't seem anything about this narrative to prevent it from being the case. I'm listening though.

Also, why shouldn't JtR try changing the time of day he strikes? He had already struck twice in the early hours of the morning, a pattern that can be detected. So why not change that around? I bet PCs were told to be on more alert at such early hour times.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.

Last edited by Batman : 10-03-2018 at 07:34 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-03-2018, 09:17 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,793
Default

hi Batman
I think the ripper, was local avg joe appearance wise and frequented pubs and maybe prostitutes (although perhaps not having sex with them) before and during his crimes.

Therefore its not crazy that some of his victims might have known him at least casually.except for Kelly, who I think the evidences indicates she knew her killer better than that.

to me, eddowes circs does seem to me that she may have known him-as it seems quite quickly from when shes released to when she goes off with him. more easily explained is she knew him and thought it was safe.

however, your scenarios in your first post go too far for me. its not that its not possible, its just that theres no evidence that she was with him that night previous to getting released from jail.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.