Where is Liz Stride?

[Paddy]

To C F

Hi, CF
What is also of interest is that Aaron Kosminskis brother Woolf (and highly likely Aaron himself) lived in the house between the blue and the orange in 1882.
(Chris Phillips found this quite by chance when we were doing "New Light on Aaron Kosminski" for RIP 128.)

Mike
It was a complete file of letters from police regarding the murders (MEPO 3/140). It turned out to be about 1-2 hundred images They sent me a disc and charged £10. Bargain ! I have not read all yet but haven't found anything new as yet. What was clear was that Schwartz's statement was read at the inquest.

I can remember Berner street as narrow and a bit gloomy looking, as I went along Commercial Road in the early 60s.

Pat

[Cogidubnus]

What was clear was that Schwartz's statement was read at the inquest.

Hi Pat

Well this looks like something of a revelation...Hope you don't mind me asking, but when you say it's clear, how so? Does it actually say so, or do the file references suggest it?

The reason I ask is, we've heard before about an allegedly "erroneous" reference to Schwartz's evidence being given at the inquest...in Sir Charles Warren's memo dated 6th November 1888...this is quoted in the sourcebook (Page 151 in my edition) and listed in the references as MEPO ref HO 144/221/A49301C. ff.200-01

Or perhaps this is something different?

All the best

Dave

[Paddy]

Schwartz's evidence

I will check it out now. Have to go through them so might be a little while.
back in a bit...
Pat

[Paddy]

One letter there might be more

Good luck with reading this. I gave up towards the bottom......
It is a draft however.....will check the others as I am sure I saw another...

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Pat

It's dated 5th November, and worded just very slightly differently to the memo eventually sent on the 6th November, so I'd guess it's a first draft of the same memo to the Secretary of State.

In case you haven't currently a copy of the sourcebook to hand I'll quote it:-

4 Whitehall Place, SW
6th November 1888

Sir,
With reference to your letter of the 29th ulto. I have to acquaint you, for the information of the Secretary of State, that the opinion arrived at upon the evidence given by Schwartz at the Inquest in Elizabeth Stride's case is that the name "Lipski", which he alleges was used by a man whom he saw assaulting the woman in Berners Street on the night of the murder, was not addressed to the supposed accomplice but to Schwartz himself. It appears that since the Lipski case it has come to be used as an epiphet in addressing or speaking of Jews.

With regard to the latter portion of your letter I have to state that searching enquiries were made by an officer in Aberdeen Place, St John's Wood, the last known address of the insane medical student named "John Sanders", but the only information that could be obtained was that a lady named Sanders did reside with her son at No. 20, but left that address to go abroad about two years ago.

I am,
Sir,
Your most obedient Servant,
C.Warren

So I think it's something we've seen before...and which has been dismissed by many readers as erroneous...it does have to be said it's not (as far as I know) been mentioned in any of the newspaper accounts, so maybe they're right and Warren was mistaken....

Nice work though...any other interesting bits?

All the best

Dave

[C. F. Leon]

Thanks for the map, drstrange, it's quite what I was needing to understand the situation.

One thing that the map shows that I had not caught previously is that much of what was happening seems to be all on the same side of the street, not to mention in a much more restricted area than I had believed. I now can understand why Ms Mortimer seems to have missed so much that happened- the earlier incidents were on the far side of the club with what appears to be considerable noise coming from such. Also, from his path Schwartz could have been attending the meeting. It's interesting that Packer never mentioned either the Schwartz/BS/Pipeman incident (in whatever form it actually occured) or the apparently related commotion mentioned by some attendees of the club- his shop was right there where it seems to have happened. Too bad Schwartz was never given an indentity parade of club attendees- it might have turned up a lead if either BS or Pipeman had been there. Of course, if IS had been at the club, it's a moot point. (But if he had been there, wouldn't have one of the other members have been translating for him?)

This is probably material for another thread, but I'm guessing that if Pipeman actually was coming from the pub (and if the pub was closed, he probably was an employee or at least known to the staff), the investigation probably identified him, which is why he was not suspected later.

[Paddy]

Thanks Dave,
There was also a letter dated 1st November 88 to (I assume) Charles Warren From F.G. Abberline saying more or less exactly the same information, although that doesn't mention an inquest. Abberline explains also that he questioned Schwartz quite thoroughly.
There was a copy of the New York Herald and letters as to how they got hold of the story.... And a few letters about Packer. Nothing that I have not read about before.
There are all the other murders and I have to go through them yet. Some of the writing is so hard to read so I might take a bit of time as I will have to cross reference them with Evans and Skinners Sourcebook and this website.

Interesting fact found from online translator
The polish word for nosey sounds like Lipski although it is spelt wścibski.

Pat.....................

[Cogidubnus]

Then it must be Cadosh.

Thanks Mike

Incidentally, I really love that...surely one of the snappiest comments ever...thanks DVV!

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Interesting fact found from online translator
The polish word for nosey sounds like Lipski although it is spelt wścibski.

Now that Pat, is indeed very interesting...so it could be Lipski, Lizzie, or nosey...two of the three being threats...

All the best

Dave