Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by Abby Normal 1 minute ago.
Non-Fiction: Walter Dew's account...... - by RockySullivan 36 minutes ago.
Torso Killings: torso maps - by RockySullivan 51 minutes ago.
Torso Killings: torso maps - by RockySullivan 54 minutes ago.
Torso Killings: torso maps - by Abby Normal 1 hour and 7 minutes ago.
Torso Killings: torso maps - by FrankO 1 hour and 28 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - (34 posts)
Torso Killings: torso maps - (23 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: If Mrs. Maxwell Didn't See Mary Who Did She See? - (11 posts)
Research Related: Henry Kelly - (5 posts)
Non-Fiction: Walter Dew's account...... - (4 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (3 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Fleming, Joseph

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 07-17-2014, 06:14 AM
pinkmoon pinkmoon is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: north west of england
Posts: 1,813
Default

I do admire people who take the bull by the horns get out of their arm chair(unlike me) and do something constructive concerning this fascinating case and maybe just maybe something interesting might be discoverd in some old file but I have always thought (and I might be wrong in this) that if any inmate of an asylum mentioned that he had committed serious crimes and it came to the attention of the staff than surely this information would be reported to the police.
__________________
Three things in life that don't stay hidden for to long ones the sun ones the moon and the other is the truth
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-17-2014, 02:00 PM
Cogidubnus Cogidubnus is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: West Sussex UK
Posts: 3,145
Default

Hi Graham

I'm not sure how much notice anybody at all took of anybody in an asylum...I'm halfway through a book by Sara Wise, entitled "Inconvenient People"...it's about Lunatic Asylums, and people who shouldn't really have been in them. May not sound much, but it's a cracking book, and I'd wholeheartily recommend it.

There were any number of quite clearly SANE people locked away. whose protestations were totally ignored...what chance a genuine nutter?

All the best

Dave
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-17-2014, 02:14 PM
pinkmoon pinkmoon is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: north west of england
Posts: 1,813
Default

[quote=Cogidubnus;299857]Hi Graham

I'm not sure how much notice anybody at all took of anybody in an asylum...I'm halfway through a book by Sara Wise, entitled "Inconvenient People"...it's about Lunatic Asylums, and people who shouldn't really have been in them. May not sound much, but it's a cracking book, and I'd wholeheartily recommend it.

There were any number of quite clearly SANE people locked away. whose protestations were totally ignored...what chance a genuine nutter?

All the best

Dav
e[/QUOTE
Hi Dave,I watched a programme some years ago about Victorian aslyums and it highlighted the fact that a lot of men used to try and of load their unwanted wife's onto them in fact quite a few doctors would help out for a certain fee and make sure the wife's never saw the light of day again.
__________________
Three things in life that don't stay hidden for to long ones the sun ones the moon and the other is the truth
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-17-2014, 03:03 PM
Cogidubnus Cogidubnus is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: West Sussex UK
Posts: 3,145
Default

Hi Graham

Yes, but not just unwanted wives... parents whose money would come in handy, persons with whom you had a vendetta, children whose lives you were determined to control, etc...

It's honestly a great book...and a real eyeopener...

All the best

Dave
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-18-2014, 08:05 AM
Errata Errata is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tennessee, U.S.
Posts: 2,937
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Scott View Post
Today I received a reply from Redbridge Record Office of the information they have regarding Fleming/Evans at Claybury
Sadly there is very little - in fact the information is confined to his admission record with, apparently, no follow up notes as was the case with the Stone Asylum
Here is the reply I received today:

Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 11:51 AM
Subject: RE: Claybury Asylum


Dear Mr Scott,
I am glad to tell you that the Health Authority has agreed to release to you the details of Mr James Evans, alias Joseph Fleming.
The information is as follows:
He was admitted to Claybury as James Evans, on 14th February 1895, transferring from Stone. He was then 40 years old, unmarried, a pauper (the responsibility of Bethnal Green), and had been a dock labourer. His religion is given as C of E. His illness was described as mania, to which he had a hereditary disposition, and was precipitated by the use of alcohol. This was his first attack, which had lasted 3 years. He died on 28th August 1920.

You will deduce from the above that the understanding then of mental illness and its causes was very different from our own.
Just to inject a little perspective into this (not fact, just perspective), mood disorders are incredibly susceptible to alcohol. It's a depressant that binds with the same receptors as several neurotransmitters, so people with mood disorders overproduce to compensate. When the alcohol wears off, the neurologic imbalance remains. In the case of mania, which tends to feel great even when it's scary, the brain tries to keep the high. And is usually pretty damn successful. Being bipolar with a depressive slant, If I have a glass of wine I can trigger a several months long depression. Obviously I no longer drink. But back then without any of that being known... yeah. this diagnosis could be correct and valid.

And there is a hereditary component. It isn't 1 to 1, but the child of someone with a mood disorder has a 60% chance of having a mood disorder. Not really sure why, I've never heard that they have identified any mood disorder genes. But we have twin studies and about 80 years of records with mostly correct diagnosis, so we have the statistics.

The unusual part of this is his first attack being at the age of 40. It couldn't have been. It was probably the first attack that everyone recognized as being mental illness, as opposed to just being irritable or kind of hyper. A late diagnosis is not uncommon even today. But the first attack at 40 would indicate a brain injury. And mood disorders when severe can cause psychosis, which is a lot easier to spot than just mood lability. I'm betting this was the first attack that made people take a few steps back, but not his actual first attack.
__________________
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-19-2014, 09:31 AM
Roy Corduroy Roy Corduroy is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,579
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogidubnus View Post
..I'm halfway through a book by Sara Wise, entitled "Inconvenient People"...it's about Lunatic Asylums, and people who shouldn't really have been in them. May not sound much, but it's a cracking book, and I'd wholeheartily recommend it.

There were any number of quite clearly SANE people locked away. whose protestations were totally ignored...what chance a genuine nutter?

... not just unwanted wives... parents whose money would come in handy, persons with whom you had a vendetta, children whose lives you were determined to control, etc...

It's honestly a great book...and a real eyeopener...
Thanks for the recommendation, I've not read the newest Sarah Wise book yet, but I will.

Yes it was a common theme, those declared mad.

Name:  Vox.jpg
Views: 1313
Size:  212.6 KB

On the other hand, Joe Fleming (James Evans) did seem to have a mental problem which required his committal.

And I agree with the comment of the late Chris Scott, as further explained by Errata. We have to read between the lines when studying the old mental records. This has various connotations. For instance, some today argue a 'lunatic' could not have done the murders. But since we have different knowledge and standards now for insanity it follows the comparison is hard to make.

Roy
__________________
Sink the Bismark
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-19-2014, 09:54 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Lyme Regis, Dorset
Posts: 1,475
Default

In the 1980’s my parents had a small general store in Tomswood Hill near Claybury Hospital. One of our regular customers was a lovely white-haired old lady who used to call in two or three times a week to buy sweets. She was always smiling and happy, though not too talkative. One day after she had left the shop another customer, who worked at Claybury, remarked ‘ She’s one of ours.’ She then told us the old lady’s story. She had been committed to Claybury by her parents because she was an unruly teenager. There was nothing medically wrong with her but she had remained there for the rest of her life. After a time she had become too institutionalised to release.

Last edited by MrBarnett : 07-19-2014 at 10:04 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-19-2014, 07:03 PM
Roy Corduroy Roy Corduroy is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,579
Default

Thanks for sharing that, Mr B

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
There was nothing medically wrong with her but she had remained there for the rest of her life. After a time she had become too institutionalised to release.
Oh dear, it's like being a Casebooker

Roy
__________________
Sink the Bismark
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-19-2014, 07:18 PM
GUT GUT is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: I come from a land Down Under
Posts: 7,334
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
In the 1980’s my parents had a small general store in Tomswood Hill near Claybury Hospital. One of our regular customers was a lovely white-haired old lady who used to call in two or three times a week to buy sweets. She was always smiling and happy, though not too talkative. One day after she had left the shop another customer, who worked at Claybury, remarked ‘ She’s one of ours.’ She then told us the old lady’s story. She had been committed to Claybury by her parents because she was an unruly teenager. There was nothing medically wrong with her but she had remained there for the rest of her life. After a time she had become too institutionalised to release.
I understand that in the USA there are people in gaol for the same reason, they are eligible for release but after 40+ years are too institutionalised.
__________________
G U T

There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-19-2015, 03:09 PM
MysterySinger MysterySinger is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 422
Default

It is obvious that Joseph Fleming had a history of mental illness given the records available. He had used the alias of James Evans also for some years. He had a history of removal and resettlement.

He may have had several jobs, variously labourer, plasterer's labourer, french polisher, boot maker's apprentice. According to one record he resided in Royston Street during his apprenticeship but I suspect that shortly afterwards moved to 125 Brick Lane.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.