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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Fleming, Joseph

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Old 07-14-2008, 02:34 AM
DVV DVV is offline
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Default Domestic or lunatic?

There were 2 very interesting threads on Joseph Fleming some time ago, one discussing the possibility for Fleming and Hutchinson to be one and the same person (Fleming being known for having used at least one alias, that of James Evans).
However, Fleming doesn't necessarily need the "help" of Hutch to attract attention:

1- He has lived with Mary Kelly

2- He is said to have ill-used her at the time she was with Barnett

3- He was (or became) a lunatic, and died, indeed, at the Claybury Mental Hospital on 28 August 1920 (he was born in 1855 or 59)

...and I hope there is much more to come about him...

Curiously enough, his mental illness and the fact that he has been Mary's lover (she is said to have been very fond of him) make him of interest for both those who see Kelly's murder as the peak of a serie, or tend to view it as a domestic affair.
Amitiés,
DVV
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Old 07-14-2008, 03:05 AM
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Right you are, DVV.

You might also consider:

4- He moved into the heart of the murder district (The Victoria Home) in August 1888.

5- At 29 years of age and 5"7' in height in 1888 (when he worked as a docker), he broadly fits some of the more reliable witness descriptions to have emerged from the Whitechapel investigation. Caution is urged with this one given the unreliability of eyewitness sightings and the fact that these physical particulars could fit quite a few others, but it's worth throwing in for good measure all the same.

Best regards,
Ben
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Old 07-14-2008, 03:14 AM
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True! And if witnesses have to be taken cautiously, it will always be difficult to believe in a long tall ripper...
Has the police try to trace Fleming, or did they pay no attention to Barnett and Venturney's accounts regarding him?
Amitiés,
David
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Old 07-14-2008, 01:40 PM
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Hi David,

Quote:
Has the police try to trace Fleming, or did they pay no attention to Barnett and Venturney's accounts regarding him?
They may well have tried, but with Fleming's alias and the fact that he arrived in the immediate district so recently, the chances of police searching efforts bearing fruit was relatively remote.

Best regards,
Ben
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Old 07-14-2008, 01:49 PM
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Default Carl Feigenbaum

Carl Feigenbaum or Carl Zahn please read Trevor Marriott case closed.
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Old 07-14-2008, 01:50 PM
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And all the more, neither Barnett nor the Venturney seem to be aware of this new address.
Isn't that strange?
Barnett refers to Fleming living in Bethnal Green, while Venturney did not mention any address.
But both speak of him visiting Kelly in Miller's court.

So, is it that Kelly knew Fleming's new location but did not inform her friends, or should we imagine Fleming shifting slyly close to his ex-girlfriend?
Chilling!

Amitiés,
David
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Old 07-14-2008, 01:56 PM
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Absolutely, David.

Another point of interest is that Venturney had never seen Fleming; only heard about his visits and "ill-use" from Kelly. The same may well be true of Barnett, who gave no indication of ever having met his potential "rival".

All the best,
Ben
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Old 07-14-2008, 02:00 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Just a quick cool-off:

IF Fleming killed Mary Kelly but NOT the others, we are left with a man who decided to kill his (ex?)fiancée Ripper style - only worse. I find that hard to accept.

IF on the other hand, Fleming killed Mary Kelly AND the others, we are left with a man who feels a need to get back on his (ex?)fiancée - but who for some reason decides to first have a go at a handful of other prostitutes who could have been Marys mother, agewise.

I find that hard to accept too.

...much as I enjoy that little twist of Hutch and Fleming apparently both being Victorian home residents at the same time. Coincidential, though, if you ask me.

All the best,

Fisherman
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Old 07-14-2008, 02:08 PM
Ben Ben is offline
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Quote:
IF on the other hand, Fleming killed Mary Kelly AND the others, we are left with a man who feels a need to get back on his (ex?)fiancée - but who for some reason decides to first have a go at a handful of other prostitutes who could have been Marys mother, agewise.

I find that hard to accept too
If that's the sole motivation for Fleming killing Kelly and the others, yes, I'd find that a little tricky to accept too. But I ain't Bruce Paley, Fish!

Quote:
...much as I enjoy that little twist of Hutch and Fleming apparently both being Victorian home residents at the same time. Coincidential, though, if you ask me
...Which I didn't.

And their residence during the murders is certainly not the only "coincidental" element between Fleming and Hutchinson. But, as I'm sure you'll appreciate, this isn't a Hutch-Fleming thread.

Best regards,
Ben
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Old 07-14-2008, 02:11 PM
crj crj is offline
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Default question

Where i would like to know have you recieved or found information on any of the so called suspects and witnesses outside of the factual coroners inquests from the time? as very little documantation from the time actually remains? during the thorough investigation in his book Trevor Marriott very little evidence and even less new evidence could be discovered the word clutching at straws severely come to mind! even documentation between the queen and her government show no new evidence relating to the Whitechapel murders so how does information about periferal figures imerge except for being made up.
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